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871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

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871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Wed 7 Jul - 16:04

The only piece that I can think of that could be a mustard is this pot from John



Can someone confirm this please .... or come up with some other shape?


Last edited by Ev on Sun 29 May - 15:21; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  HeatherT on Wed 7 Jul - 18:40

1814 & 1815 were also a mustard pot and lid out of 1981 under the castware stoneware numbers...
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Wed 7 Jul - 20:49

John's mustard pot is from the Cook & Serve range .... does that help?
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round or square knob

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 18 Aug - 19:38

I've always taken these to be mustard pots. They complement the Cook & Serve pepper and salts. Very delicate and lids easily broken. I'm not aware of any spoons.

John, take note that your pattern is Marianne Westman "Tango", from Rorstrand, which I have yet to see Crown Lynn credit to her, or even give a name.

Note also that it has a round knob.
I have Blue Tango (hand-painted) and "Westman Tango" with round knobs.

The other standard patterns, Green Bamboo, Shasta Daisy, Autumn Splendour (etc) have square knobs.

Spanner in the works: today I saw a Blue Tango (hand-painted) with a square knob!

Banker is currently selling two red pots with plain white lids, square knob. Lovely things.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  unouwanit on Mon 19 Aug - 11:13

There is also a sweet Golden Fall one on TM at the moment that I am quite taken by.




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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 19 Aug - 11:42

Me too.

I've just been putting together a list of these with lid colours, for my own interest.
(Also, someone dear to me who shall remain nameless just broke the lid of a friend's Autumn Splendour and I am looking for an inexpensive replacement.)

Square knob
yellow: Golden Fall
brown: Autumn Splendour
green: Green Bamboo
blue: Blue Tango
white: (banker's red pots on TM)

Round knob
red: (Westman Tango)
blue: Blue Tango

If you know of any more please add.

---------
10/5/14
The Narvik mustards have white lids I think, as per sugar bowls.


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Sat 10 May - 23:09; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Sun 9 Mar - 20:30

Jeremy, please check out the descriptions for 5616 and 5611 as they refer to the New Mustard Pot and these were first made in 1968 and were the 871.
Now which came first, the round knob or the square one?
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 9 Mar - 21:15

Ev, I'm pretty sure the round knob came first.
Blue Tango (handpainted) and Vision both have round knobs.
I think all the "replacement" pattern mustards had square knobs.

I have had cause to think about this already. I thought Marianne had had a Blue Tango with a square knob, then I realised it belonged to one of the other blue sets. I think it was Sapphire.

You may take this as a belated correction to my list above.

My ramekin and casserole in Blue Tango also have round knobs, but the coffee pot has a square one. These others all have handpainted lids, not plain blue like the mustard, where the handpainted is on the body. As far as I know all the coffee pots had square knobs.

(On a related but irrelevant matter I am looking at compiling pics of these mustards with wooden lids as when I first saw them I thought people were just plopping on something that fitted but I am now moving to the conclusion that wooden lids and/or stands were used on special editions.)

Back on track: was the 5616 a new shape or a new number for the 871?

Also, is the new lid shape 5611 just about knob shape or are we looking at one of those lids like on the teapots? I have no idea of date or number for that differently shaped mustard pot or small sugar bowl I posted a pic of in Val's Reflections sugar bowl link:

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4780-does-this-lid-go-with-this-sugar-bowl#17627
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Mon 10 Mar - 7:27

This photo of an advert for Vision Cook & Serve from 1964 doesn't help really, but I will put it on for a short time just in case and also I've been wanting to show you .....

Regarding your questions above, as the lid fits the 5616 and the 871 mustard I think the word new refers to the knob.  The same with the 5616 as it has a 'new' lid and is given a four digit shape number.  
This block of shapes starting with 5610 [which I strongly believe is the Cook & Serve soup bowl] will encompass all of the Cook & Serve shapes.  Do you see them?  They should all be together.  I think I see them!


Last edited by Ev on Tue 8 Apr - 18:55; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Kat & Co. on Mon 10 Mar - 9:18

This is a Mustard pot Jim has in his collection, minus lid, my neighbour has one same with a lid. I had been wondering where this fits in. Cool 
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Mon 10 Mar - 9:26

Does that pot have a seating for a lid Kat?
Would it take an 871 mustard pot lid?
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Kat & Co. on Mon 10 Mar - 9:30

Yes to both but I will get pics & measurements of my neighbours pot to be certain.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Kat & Co. on Mon 10 Mar - 9:53

7cmd x 4.5cmh with no lid

Same lid fits, it maybe that Jims plum one is not vitrified like above.


Last edited by Kat & Co. on Mon 10 Mar - 10:06; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added measurements)
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Mon 10 Mar - 10:19

Awesome Kat as the Intercontinental one is the small one that is next to Val's lidded sugar in the photo of the new vitrified ware!  Now all we need to do is to find it's shape number and it will have a 6 for the second number which denotes Vitrified ware.  Hahaaa not as easy as it sounds!  I do recall loading an Individual sugar basin
somewhere recently though!

As this ware was made around 1968 and it shows the round knob on the sugar and the mustard, perhaps the square mustard knob came first .....?  
I should ask if this is the round shaped knob first shouldn't I ...... as there could be more than 2  ............arghhhhhh this is a crazy game!
Well that's my theory!


Last edited by Ev on Mon 10 Mar - 13:56; edited 1 time in total
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Mon 10 Mar - 11:57

Found it:
3614 - Individual Sugar Basin - first made 6.12.65

Also noticed:
1658 - 1623 Lid with Spoon Hole [& Knob] - first made 4.2.72

Just realised that I should put all of the lid info on separate to the body, as it will help with identification. Sometime!

Just gathering info atm ...... and what a buzzzzzzz!
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 10 Mar - 12:35

Knobs.

Back row: Vision, round; Green Bamboo, square; Blue Tango, round.
Every replacement pattern mustard I have seen has a square knob lid.
The round knob lids are otherwise the same shape as the square knob lids.

They are totally different from the lids of the small sugar bowl 3614,
even though they have the same diameter.

Front row: ramekin lid, round knob, casserole has same; coffee pot lid, square knob.
Regardless of pattern I have only ever seen round knobs on ramekins and square knobs on coffee pots.

The sugar bowl photo I posted yesterday is the same as Kat and Arna's ones above.
The whole bowl and lid are covered in a brown glaze which as Ev suggests is like the brown of "Basalt" glaze but there is NO black at all.

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/u153


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Mon 10 Mar - 14:30; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add link)
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CORRECTION

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Tue 11 Mar - 12:26

I have just discovered that the Blue Tango coffee pots have two different lids.
I said above that I have only ever seen them with square knob.
I was wrong. There was a round knob one too.
I have a third pot in the attic: I will check that out some time.

These are BOTH lids for Blue Tango coffee pots.
Both are hand-painted: messiness on left one is just reflection.
The round knob one is quite different from the ramekin round knob lid.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  JanPots on Sat 10 May - 19:07

I found that the 5616 holds "2 and 3/4 oz " from info around 1969
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 24 May - 20:25

In my photo above showing five lids the round knobbed mustard pot lids are included in the 871 number.

The square-knob lid on the Green Bamboo pot will be the 5611 "new lid for 871 and 5616". I'd then hazard a guess that the Green Bamboo pot is the 5616 "new mustard pot", 23.3.68. New being it is made differently.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Mon 25 May - 6:57

Jeremy Ashford wrote:
The square-knob lid on the Green Bamboo pot will be the 5611 "new lid for 871 and 5616". I'd then hazard a guess that the Green Bamboo pot is the 5616 "new mustard pot", 23.3.68. New being it is made differently.

I have considered this before, but have never investigated enough to decide, but now you have done it for me and I will add these to the Four Digit Gallery thanks Jeremy.
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Shape number needed for ramekin lid with square knob

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 10 Apr - 17:50

Contrary to my earlier comments about ramekins having lids with round knobs only, I now see ramekins with square knobs. These will be a later shape as they have the screenprint pattern rather than the handpainted I have.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/other/auction-1066511489.htm

The new lid should probably have a new shape number.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Sun 29 May - 9:16

Kat & Co. wrote:7cmd x 4.5cmh with no lid

Same lid fits, it maybe that Jims plum one is not vitrified like above.

This is definitely the 5616 New Mustard Pot and the lid is 5611 and the records show that the new lid also goes with the 871.
I will update the Gallery as it is showing the Cook & Serve one.
It feels great to finally get this shape sorted.
Now we need to find the larger sugar in this style and it will be the knob on the lid that finds it and I see a reference above to one that Val has.  Can anyone point me to it please as it's number will be around this mustard pot.

Edits to add that looking at the Gallery .... the lid with the cut out for a spoon will be the shape 5617 and the lid without the spoon hole will be the 5611. So I will fix that up right away.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 29 May - 11:04

I will tidy this post later as I have contradicted myself in the stream of consciousness below.

Ev, I'm totally on board for the 5616 but have problems with your 5611: the lid you show for 5611 and 5617 is actually the same lid viewed from different angles, as stated by Kat in the quoted text. There is certainly a cutout so what the words "dual cutout" mean I don't know but I nevertheless accept that 5617 is as shown.

If the 5611 is a lid with a similar knob to the 5617 then the square knob lid for the 871 needs a new number, or it must be considered a revised version of the (round knob) lid for the 871.

Although the 871 and 5616 are similar in size at the lid gallery they are not identical. I forget which way it is but I know that the lids are interchangeable one way but not the other so one lid fits both but the other fits only one. I think I have mentioned that elsewhere but do not have it to hand. I would need to have them side by side to check.

Certainly in the photo the 5617 appears to fit the 871.

Although the 5611 definition appears to match it with both 5616 and 871 I have never seen matched pattern pot and lid with either the 5616-pot/871-lid or 871-pot/5617-type-lid combinations.

Do any drawings have answers for us, specifically a drawing of a 5611?
I will review those you posted recently.

Okay. Correction. I see the drawing does show the 5611 as you have allocated!

Accepting that, I am now good with your 5611!

However, I think the 5617 will be as the description says "dual cut out", ie two cutouts.

That leaves us with a lid yet to find, and a number to find for the square knob 871 lid unless we accept it also as being an 871. (Description 871 is for pot and lid.)

1623 and 1658 get a mention above but they belong to a large bowl, a sugar bowl.


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Sun 29 May - 11:35; edited 2 times in total
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Ev on Sun 29 May - 11:13

Thanks for your comments Jeremy.  I do like having support and back up and also for someone to watch what I'm doing, as I am mostly winging it and feel rather alone and you pop up to chastise or pat me on the back Very Happy  Thanks I appreciate having you around.

Yes I thought that it was the same lid, but as these are extremely hard to find, I didn't think it was a problem to use the photo with the cut-out not showing.  All good Smile

Yes I agree that there will be a shape number for the other lid and I will try to remember to look for it in the records when I have time.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 29 May - 11:25

I may or may not get round to editing my previous post as it is messy but may not be a problem, however to address the matter of cutouts on 5611/5617 lids I think we need a bit more info yet.

We only have one lid picture so far. We need to identify the possibilities, and hopefully photograph them. Certainly these shapes are pretty rare but now we know to look out it should be easier.

We have a lid with a SINGLE cutout. Done.

Is there a lid with NO cutout?

Is there a lid with TWO cutouts? ie "dual cut out"
.
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Re: 871 is a mustard plus the 5616 New Mustard and 5611 Lid

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