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Help with shapes.

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Help with shapes.

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Wed 14 Aug - 12:33

Can someone please help me put some numbers to some Cook & Serve (some, but maybe not all) shapes. I have looked at the galleries and don't think they are there.

1. The small 4 inch or so Cook & Serve bowl with flared rim as handles, usually in a Honey Glaze or Pioneer colour but also currently (or recently) on trademe as Air New Zealand soup bowls:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=623961145

and "Red Tango" soup bowl:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=624599312

2. Two Jubilee items on trademe at:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=623978680

(The Jubilee and Colonial mini-casseroles are obviously 5620s.)
The shallow dish appears to be a 5627, correct me if I'm wrong.
The deep dish has me puzzled. At first glance I thought it was a 5622 without lid, but on closer examination I saw it did not have the wide rim, or a lip inside to carry a lid. It appears also to be lower and narrower than, and a different bowl shape from, the 5622.
The sizes of these two dishes, quoting from the listing are "large crown lynn cookware dish, is 19.5cm wide, 8cm deep, flater [sic] dish is 23cm wide, 4cm deep".
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Jeremy Ashford

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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Ev on Wed 14 Aug - 15:13

I would so love to be able to sort out those numbers too Jeremy.
I have the written records, but they don't give info such as cook & serve .... just numbers and a bit of a description.
Here is an example which may be the little soup bowl ....
5610 - Small Eared Puree Bowl (now ram press) [vitrified] - this is from around 1964.
8641 - Small Eared Puree Bowl was 5610 [Ram Press vitrified] - from around 1982
I found the ovenware numbers for Sundowner and Charnwood and wonder if they may help, but the records are from the mid 1980's, so I'm not sure. These have many shapes in the 8600's which are vitrified ware.

There are so many listings of Bakers - square, round, Oval, small, medium, large , Flan Dishes, Soufflé, pages of these actually ......
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soup bowl or "lugged ceral bowl"

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Wed 14 Aug - 16:47

Ev,
look what I just found while searching Rorstrand. (for my Sweden topic)
There is no size given but it certainly LOOKS like you could call this "ANNIKA RORSTRAND LUGGED CEREAL BOWL" a "Jubilee Soup Bowl"!!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANNIKA-RORSTRAND-LUGGED-CEREAL-BOWL-/300873473578?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item460d74de2a
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5625

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Wed 14 Aug - 22:09

"Round pie dishes, diameter is 130mm by 33mm deep"

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/plates-platters/auction-626908276.htm

Second picture of this "Sandowner" pie dish is clearly marked "5625"

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/plates-platters/photos/a-626908276/p-246547437.htm

I just realised I have a 5627 ("Pioneer"), which is 235 x 50 o/s.

That may leave room for a "5626" somewhere between these two, perhaps 180 x 40ish.
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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Ev on Thu 15 Aug - 12:54

Excellent Jeremy ..... as now we know what these look like and you even have one.....
5625 - Small pie dish 6" or 14.5cm also called a baker
5626 - Medium pie dish or baker no measurements
5627 - Large Pie Dish or baker 9" or 23.5cm
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yes, I have one and...

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Thu 15 Aug - 14:31

Ev,
I was so taken with the JUBILEE pattern,
what with it looking so much like Marianne Westman's "ANNIKA" (Rorstrand, 1972),
which is way too expensive to buy AND ship to NZ,
and after looking at the lovely 5620s on the forum that aren't Pioneer,
and wanting to spice up my cookware collection,
that I bought:

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=623978680

which, considering that it's four different items each of which I will be pleased to have,
wasn't TOO expensive.

So, I will soon have two 5627s in TWO patterns (Jubilee and Pioneer/Honey Glaze),
LOTS of 5620s in Pioneer/Honey Glaze variations include Qantas (with and without glazed bottom),
plus Jubilee and Colonial,
5621s in Pioneer/Honey Glaze variations and Jubilee,
5622s in Pioneer/Honey Glaze variations,
so I guess I need to get one in Jubilee
(if the price ever drops: been at $37 for a long time)
...and probably some other stuff in the attic that I have forgotten about.

AND, IF,
the deep Jubilee dish ("19.5cm wide, 8cm") on that listing,
(which may be a Rorstrand shape) has a number on the bottom,
THEN,
I will report back to you with a NEW SHAPE NUMBER!!!

This is not china cabinet stuff, I know, but items for daily/weekly use: it makes the kitchen look good too.
It looks as though a $5 purchase from the local market (5621 Jubilee) has ended up costing me a lot more!
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new shape identified

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 18 Aug - 17:24

"The Avondale Selection Fine Ovenware Souffle dish"

5628 - souffle dish

I went out looking for more Jubilee in Auckland and instead found a "Colonial" souffle dish, with box, The shape is a match for the "Jubilee" one I am awaiting, as described above, and again below:

19.5cm diameter, 8cm deep. (Seller measurements, I have yet to check)

That gives us 5620-22 and 5625-28.
There must be a 5623 and a 5624 out there, presumably in cookware.
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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Ev on Sun 18 Aug - 18:32

5623 - Lid to 5620 (was 1681)
5624 - Lid to 5621 (was 1682)
There are some squiggly words that I can't make out for both of these lids ......
then (No. not used) which would have been at a later date than the year first made which looks like around 1976/77
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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 18 Aug - 22:08

Then where does the lid to 5622 fit?
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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Ev on Mon 19 Aug - 7:41

5629 - Lid to 5622 (was 1683) No not used reverted to 1683. First made Nov 1977.
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which number for which lugged bowl?

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 19 Aug - 9:53

Ev wrote:Here is an example which may be the little soup bowl ....
5610 - Small Eared Puree Bowl (now ram press) [vitrified] - this is from around 1964.
8641 - Small Eared Puree Bowl was 5610 [Ram Press vitrified] - from around 1982
I've been looking at the "little soup bowls".
I broke the bank yesterday and bought an Air New Zealand tohora "soup bowl". Rather than trust internet photos I had a chance to choose the best of about a dozen so that hurts a little less.

Notes on little soup bowls.
The Pioneer bows have a diameter of 114mm and measure 140 from lug to lug, 50mm high at lugs.
The base is unglazed and has a black cook and serve stamp. No impressed markings.
(One example of the 16 I use in my kitchen has a glazed base with the same black stamp.)

The Air New Zealand soup bowl is slightly larger (116, 143, 50) and heavier but appears to be the same vitreous material. The base is glazed, with Air New Zealand stamp, and "New Zealand" impressed.

So, do the two slightly different objects correlate with the two numbers 5610 and 8641?
The 56** correlates with other Pioneer Cook and Serve 5620-5629. Other DC8 ware has numbers commencing with 8 but only three digits. How do production dates correlate with this scenario?

I'm tempted to buy the "Red Tango" bowl whether tango or just plain red, still for sale on trademe, to see how it measures up. (Note: this plain red body white interior, no transfers, may be a match for banker's 2 red mustard pots with white lids.)

I was hoping to display the Air NZ on top of one of my bowl stacks but the larger size means it will sit below, fortuitously also displaying the tohora transfer.
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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Ev on Mon 19 Aug - 10:38

You have got me going now Jeremy and I should be doing a multitude of things too ....

Pioneer Deco 677 Forma shapes - a combination of Rustic Brown, Honey and White speckled Glazeon the Cups/Sugar/Cream/S&P in 1986 has a Soup Bowl 8041 first made between 1981 to 1983 Ram Press Vitrified.
The 8041 was the 5610 Small Eared puree Bowl and is under Basins Vitrified no first date made but is the first four digit number on the page so around 1964.

I don't know why many shapes were given two different numbers, but maybe they were later made on the Ram Press instead of slip cast ..... perhaps ?

The Air New Zealand Teal with the Tohora shapes usually have the word (Teal) in the record, but I can't find any for soup bowls.  I have been trying to fathom these numbers since I got these records, so thanks for giving me some direction Jeremy.

I'm leaning towards the 5610 as the Air NZ soup bowl and 8041 the Pioneer .... do you agree Jeremy?
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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 19 Aug - 11:32

With all the windows and tabs I have open I literally lost my thread.

I think I was saying "I thought you'd say that."

It would be convenient for me the other way round, filling in the 56**s with a bowl in Pioneer. Anyway, Val has commencement of DC8 service as 1965 if that's any help, and the art gallery catalogue gives the introduction of the new ram press as 1973.

How would the bowls have been formed. I just read how jiggered bowls are/were made, which doesn't allow for the lugs. Were the 5620 to 5628 jiggered ware or ram press. I don't even have a year for commencement of this Cook & Serve ovenware. I just don't have the knowledge of the technology or access to the paperwork. I'll have to just leave it to you!
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Re: Help with shapes.

Post  Ev on Mon 19 Aug - 12:09

The first records for the Ram Press are July 1969 and both Earthenware and Vitrified wares were made on it.
If you check the Four Digit Gallery you will find that it is divided into categories that match the records -
0900 - 1999 Castware
2000 - 2999 Artware
3000 - 3650 Cups
4000 - 4999 Flatware
5000 - 5650 Basins
6000 - 6650 Jugs
7010 - 7021 Hand Thrown Earthenware
8010 - 8810 Ram Press

As I have never worked in a Commercial pottery I can only guess as to how each category was made. Slip cast for Castware, Artware, Cups, Jugs. Jiggered for Basins perhaps and Flatware ....?
Now I've lost what the point was, but the Air NZ crockery was first made in 1964, before the four digits were introduced so there is a cross over with the three digit shapes.
Val Monk page 76 gives details about the Cook and Serve range .... first made in 1963.
So I'm hoping that the 5610 is the number for the Air NZ soup bowls and the early Cook & Serve ................... but then again there is an element of doubt in my gut, as there should be a three digit number for them as well!
It's ok as this is like talking to myself, but I can review my thoughts having them written down hahaaaa
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Re: Help with shapes.

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