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tracking the history of the Cook & Serve lugged bowl

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Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 10 Feb - 15:53

What I am trying to achieve here ultimately is to give dates and numbers to the Cook & Serve lugged bowl and its predecessors. This is a work in progress.
I introduced these items in my "Adding interest to the Stacks" topic:
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4261-adding-interest-to-the-stacks-rnzaf-soup-bowls#14805
I have photographed the bases of the four similar but different bowls shown in that topic.
tracking the history of the Cook & Serve lugged bowl Soup10
Left to right: RNZAF, Tourist Hotel Corporation, Air New Zealand Cook & Serve.
The order should not be taken as chronological.

General. All items are vitrified and the same shape to eye. It is assumed that the C&S is the last of these items to be made. It is lighter in weight than the other three. We MAY be able to work out the order of the others from relative sizes and information contained on markings and know dates.

Sizes. Although the C&S is lighter it is longer than THC and RNZAF by 1.5mm, but shorter than Air NZ by 3mm. Ascending order of height is AirNZ, C&S, RNZAF/THC. Part of that height difference is the result of a beefier foot ring on NZAF and THC.
From the sizes we can conclude that we are dealing with not four but three different shapes.

Back stamp information.
RNZAF: none.
THC: THC backstamp.
Air NZ: Air NZ back stamd AND impressed "NEW ZEALAND".
C&S: BLACK Ovenproof Cook and Serve backstamp.

Relevant dates (mostly from one or other of Val's books).
Cook & Serve introduced 1963V2/144
Four digit numbering system replaces 3 digit Feb 1964 V2/145
Air NZ DC8 range "developed in 1965" V2/89
Quantas mini casserole from 1977 V2/90
THC established 1956, backstamp "1960s or 1970s" V2/92
Tango pattern adopted by THC after(?) CL took over GibPat in 1968. V2/94

My first inclination was to think that the THC banded tableware preceded the Red and Blue Tango but from the fonts of the backstamps I think it was the other way round. (Happy to be corrected.) Whilst THC was established in the '50s all the THC tableware I see appears to date from the 60s or later.

Preliminary conclusions.
I believe the shape first appears in the 1965 Air NZ bowl. This should have a four digit number in the 1600s. I think the THC and RNZAF followed that and will also have a number in the 1600s, and, despite minor variations in design, probably the same number. I believe the age of the C&S variant will be consistent with the other similarly glazed C&S  bake ware which replaced the 1969 Chateau Range (with 1600 numbers), and thus it will have a four digit number in the 5000s.

I'm going to keep chipping away at this in the background and, unless anyone has any startling revelations or I do so myself, I will make additions and alterations as edits rather than new posts.
Jeremy Ashford
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Post  Ev on Mon 10 Feb - 17:05

I've been keeping an eye out for these soup bowls and want to know why I can't find the Air NZ DC8 soup bowl in the 800's along with the salt and pepper and the butter dish? Also why doesn't anything else have the word 'Teal' after them like these two do, which makes it easy to find as TEAL turned into AIR NZ about this time.

The 1600's only turn up 1665 Ramikin (sic) 1970 and 1675 Ramikin (sic) 1970, so who would know what they are like unless someone found one with a number on it.
How interesting to notice that the Air NZ salt & pepper has been given a four digit number of 1641 and 1642 in 1969! Does anyone have one? The 1600's include a double eggcup, a geriatric plate, Neon Light cup, Gigi scent bottle, Ashtray, more salt and peppers, wine bottle, several unidentifiable casseroles etc etc etc.

Next stop is the Flatware, Basins and the Ram Press and personally I feel that the ram press will turn up something.
Ev
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Post  Ev on Mon 10 Feb - 18:38

Flatware:
Mostly saucers, plates and bowls with the odd 'Rimmed Soup (Islands)' from 1971 and Cereal Soup bowls from 1971 and 1980, but nothing that I can pin down.

Basins: E/W
Flower Pots, Mixing Basins, sugars, Baby Plate, Lamp Fitting, Mustard, Casserole Forma, Geriatric Plate, SOUP CUP, Vege Bowls.

Basins: Vit
5610 - Small Eared Puree Bowl .... no date (Now Ram Press)
5611 - New Lid to Mustard 871 & 5616 ..... getting warm orite!
5612 - Small Shape 25 Casserole Lid & Knob
5613 - Small Shape 25 Casserole 2 pt
5614 - Large Shape 25 Casserole Lid & Knob ... first made Nov 67
5615 - Large Shape 25 Casserole 4 pt  - first made 1968
5616 - New Mustard Pot (Lid 5611) - 1968
5617 - Dual Cut-Out Cover - 1968
5618 - Cereal Soup (with 2 handles) - 1973
More casseroles, soufflé, flan etc.
Ev
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Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 10 Feb - 19:10

Ev, I lost a post in rush, started before your last. I did a save so may have most of it here.
Ev, 
That's a ton of info and shows how much more we need to add to the 1600 gallery.
Some ideas.
1655 falls between various items of the Chateau/Expo range so may be an Aquamarine item. 1970 sounds good. There was a ramekin in the series.
The 1675 ramekin falls between the Ionic casseroles and the Hotel Stacking items. The list of Ionic casseroles you gave me did not include a ramekin, but maybe you only gave me what I needed. (BTW: Tricia's ionic casserole is stunning and if I'd been able to read Crown Lynn numbers and known at the time that "1673" meant it was vitrified I'd have had it. I thought then that it was Titian and precious, because of the lustrous glaze.)
Air NZ P&S: I agree that the year 1969 does sound a bit late to be giving a number to something that has presumably existed for about four years already. A shape change perhaps?

I've read on the forum about TEAL's choice of Reflections, but have no idea whether this carried on after the change to Air NZ, whether the DC8 stuff was only for the DC8s, whether some shapes were carried over through the transition, differences between domestic and international (the DC8s), and so on.

The reason I was not expecting a three digit (800s) number for the lugged bowl is that from my reading of Val, the four digit numbering came in in 1964, before the DC8 shapes. I trust 1964 was the year for changes to numbering. I may be wrong with my interpretation of the various THC back stamps. If the THC bowl preceded the Air NZ, THEN I would expect a three digit number.

Also I do not know when the 5000s started up. Presumably with the introduction of new machinery.

DOUBLE EGGCUP! Talking with Kat the other day about the disputed hotel stacking item, it was suggested that the inner rim was not to carry a lid but to allow for different sizes of egg. Such an item would fit in the 1670s, maybe early 1680s

I have been thinking that I already possess (without ever specifically setting out to do so) many of the items in the 1600 gallery, but now I see there is a whole lot yet to make it to the gallery.

That'll Do.
Jeremy Ashford
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Post  Ev on Mon 10 Feb - 20:42

Just a quick reply as I've run out of day again.
1655 is blank - there is no description - no date etc.
So we need to find this shape to see what it is !
There are hundreds and hundreds of unidentifiable shapes in the records and unless someone comes along who speaks the Crown Lynn language, I doubt if we will be able to work out what they all are.
Ev
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Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 10 Feb - 20:57

Sorry my mistake. You wrote 1665 and I saw 1655.
Jeremy Ashford
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Post  Ev on Sun 16 Feb - 18:00

Moving on to the Ram Press records .....
First stop is at the 8041 which just says as 5610 first made August 1978.
This is in the Ram Press Earthenware records, but 8041 soup shows up in the Price Lists from 1981 for Sundowner Deco 065 and Pioneer Deco 677 and the 5610 description says:
'Small Eared Puree Bowl' and was first made before Nov 1967.

I have a Pioneer small soup bowl with 'wings', but it says Cook & Serve on the base?
After that I am at a loss, as I can't find anything that resembles a soup bowl in those Ram Press records. What I can find are Oval Dishes, Small Square Hospital Dish, Ashtrays, Bakers, Flans, etc.
OMG I just found it !!!!
8641 - Small Eared Puree Bowl was 5610. No date but shows up between Oct 1981 and Sept 1983. At last a vitrified soup bowl !!!!
Just need help with which is what ..... ~_~
Ev
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