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Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

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Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Kat & Co. on Tue 13 May - 9:59

This is a different Tureen Shape.. Cool or is it the Bell Shape Casserole?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/other/auction-728585597.htm


Last edited by Kat & Co. on Tue 13 May - 16:36; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Tue 13 May - 12:17

Well I thought that this was the Forma casserole, but I'm sure that Cresta is the rimmed shape .... Hmmm.
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Maryr on Thu 15 May - 16:34

I have a Ming tureen in this shape so can be pretty confident it's not Forma shape.
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Thu 15 May - 16:38

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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Kat & Co. on Thu 15 May - 17:44

Mix & Match with some patterns maybe.. as I wouldnt have thought the gravy jug Forma as its dorothy thorpe too. Shocked 
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Thu 15 May - 18:24

Hmmm I think that is the 1336 shape gravy boat.  Check out this topic -
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t2714-jug-1336-and-1033
Dorothy Thorpe has the 1033 Shape 25 Gravy Boat, which matches the plain Shape 25 cups.

You could well be right about the mix and match casserole though .... ?
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Maryr on Fri 16 May - 10:20

Yay the link worked Ev. Well done. Does this advert have a date?  I have a big serving platter in this pattern and I don't know if its my imagination, but it seems a bit more rounded, a slightly different shape from the Forma platters I have in the same size. It fits more neatly into my Magnolia Moon platter which is also 1980s. What does this mean?  Dunno. But yes it is possible that they carried the 'Forma casserole' shape thru into the late 1980s.  By this time  the design department was no longer the force it had been when Jenkin and Cleverley were there.
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Fri 16 May - 20:26

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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Sun 18 May - 11:37

Regarding your last post Maryr - is this what you are referring to ????

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t5060-forma-oval-plate-8019-no-its-a-8022#18826
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More info on vegetable dishes

Post  Maryr on Mon 19 May - 11:05

I have dug out my notes from Percy Golding.
He included a pic of the shapes for Contemporary Ceramics, a new range developed in 1982 and released in 1982/83... not sure of the exact date. Percy says the shapes were by Tom Arnold, who was CL head of design at that time.

Percy definitely includes a vegetable serving dish in his list of new shapes for Contemporary Ceramics.  BUT the dish illustrated here looks very similar to the lidded dish in the Kashmir Rose Forma range from the Auckland Museum (as in link provided by Ev above).  Forma was first released in 1973 so I can only conclude that we have two lidded serving dishes which are very very similar in shape - one Forma from 1973 and one Contemporary Ceramics from 1982/83. I don't remember ever seeing a lidded vegetable dish in a Forma pattern - but we see one in the museum archives so they obviously exist!

As regards my big platters in Kashmir Rose and in Magnolia Moon - these are the same size as my other Forma platters but they are definitely a different shape, more rounded rather than the angular Forma shape. You can't pick this up in a photo but it is obvious when you get them together.  To complicate matters, my Kashmir Rose platter has the standard Forma mark on the base, and the Magnolia Moon platter is D 252, which is different from my dinner set which is D 609m, with the standard Contemporary Ceramics backstamp. Hmmm indeed. (see this link) http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4769-magnolia-moon-two-patterns-252-and-609?highlight=magnolia

So no silver bullets here. Maybe a person who worked there at the time could shed some light, but they are getting a bit thin on the ground.


Last edited by Maryr on Mon 19 May - 11:10; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Add link)
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Mon 19 May - 13:23

I find all of that info extremely interesting. The shapes are all in the records as the "Classique" range ..... except for the Vege dish ... I can't even find it !!
Here is another photo from the Museum, this time it's Antique Rose another Forma shape that has the same shaped dish ..
http://muse.aucklandmuseum.com/databases/LibraryCatalogue/RecordImage.aspx?imagePath=f%3a%5cdata%5cdbimages%5cpictorial%5cph%5cph89-6%5cf%5cph89-6cn4.jpg&imageFormat=Positive+(Colour+Transparency)&originalID=122335&imageCaption=&Ordinal=12
Perhaps Kat is correct in thinking that this is the 8645 Bell Rim Casserole made sometime between 1981 and 1983 ...?
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Maryr on Mon 19 May - 13:33

The date sounds right for the bell rim casserole... maybe they added it to the Forma range in the 1980s - um were they still making Forma in the 80s?  
Hey another thought. I have some Seascape, which is in the Forma shape. It includes a casserole.  Is this (very common) shape the Forma casserole?

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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Mon 19 May - 14:43

Maryr wrote: um were they still making Forma in the 80s?

Well they were still making Seascape, Last Wave and Blue Bouquet at the same time as Pirate Pete, Sally Anne and Tootle Train, so I guess the answer is yes to that question.  Now to ponder on that common shape to be the Forma Casserole, which is quite possible as we don't have shape numbers for those casseroles yet ...
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Antique Rose Advert

Post  Kat & Co. on Mon 19 May - 17:21

Yay now I 'get' Antique Rose & the blue stripes on the rim,
..its all one pattern. Rolling Eyes Cool
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Mon 19 May - 18:33

Kat & Co. wrote:Yay now I 'get' Antique Rose & the blue stripes on the rim,
..its all one pattern. Rolling Eyes Cool
Rightio - that's good news Kat  Laughing
Old photos are really helpful for many reasons Smile
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Casserole or tureen

Post  Maryr on Tue 20 May - 7:24

Another thought. Did Crown Lynn use the word "casserole" to describe a serving dish. My Seascape example above is definitely made to go in the oven. I would describe it as a casserole. My Ming serving dish is not ovenware. I would describe it as a vegetable serving dish or tureen.
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Re: Val's Casserole

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Tue 20 May - 11:38

Maryr wrote:The date sounds right for the bell rim casserole... maybe they added it to the Forma range in the 1980s - um were they still making Forma in the 80s?  
Hey another thought. I have some Seascape, which is in the Forma shape. It includes a casserole.  Is this (very common) shape the Forma casserole?

Val, I believe this fits into the range from 5631 to 5635 plus 5642.
You have not given any measurements or a volume.

There is a photo in the gallery for "5632 - .75 litre casserole - lid 5633 then 8643 - 2.2.79". The 5631 and 5642 share the lid with this one.

My photo below shows the gallery item on the right (Sundowner d065) and a smaller one sharing the same lid size on the left (Interlude d085). It contains approximately half the volume, but I find the volume measures in the descriptions far from accurate so cannot tell which it is. (Up to the lid lip it holds the same volume as the 5620).

2 casseroles. Lid 127mm OD, 5633, later 8643.

I'm guessing yours is a larger diameter, so either 5634 - 1.5l or 5635 - 2.25l, which share the lid 5636, later 8643. I have a larger one too but it is in Auckland ("Pioneer" colour).

What they called these I have no idea.

Eds to say I mistakenly referred to 5620 as 5621 and have corrected this now.


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Wed 21 May - 11:47; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Title)
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Wed 21 May - 8:29

Those are called Casseroles Jeremy, as they go into the oven and will have 6 for vitrified as their second number.  Actually your proposals on the shape numbers are most likely correct.  Does that small one hold .25 of a litre?  

Val, your thoughts are prompting more thoughts .... thank you.
The "Forma" Casserole 5014 is not vitrified so would be made of earthenware clay and wouldn't be used in the oven and yet they call it a casserole ...?

Now thanks to you I have found the 8646 Bell Rim Casserole while looking around.
How?  By noticing a Bell Rim Saucer from the same time frame and a Bell Rim Casserole!!!!!  

Darned if I can find a photo and I know there is at least a couple.  It's the one that is this shape in the Spring Fair catalogue and Heather and Cat have pics ...

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t739-spring-fair-crown-lynn-tableware?highlight=spring

Found it ....


Last edited by Ev on Wed 21 May - 14:20; edited 2 times in total
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Casseroles 5631, 5632, 5634, 5635, and 5642

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Wed 21 May - 11:39

What I meant, Ev, is that I had no idea what style of casserole they are (Forma etc). The thread shifted a bit from the original tureen topic name. I use them for cooking, but would not dream of putting a tureen in the over.

The smaller one holds 300ml to the lid lip (not the top of the pot), exactly the same amount as the 5620: certainly not 500.

The larger one holds 700 to the lid lip (rather than 750).

So, I have reservations about the volumes stated in the gallery definitions, yet I can see no other place in the gallery numbering for them.

You may remember that I had similar reservations about the 1649 stewpot that Val gave me as it too will not hold the stated 65oz. The number is clear on that one, therefore maybe the volumes stated SHOULD be taken with a grain of salt.

Supposing that Anne's one (and thus my larger one above) is correctly identified as a 5632 then the smaller one could only be the 5631 "Onion soup .25 litre". Whilst calling a container that holds 700ml a 750ml casserole is I mild exaggeration, calling one that holds 300 a 500 is beyond the pail.

These two sizes share the 5633 lid with the 5642 ".50 litre casserole". I cannot imagine that there is one even taller than this with the same lid so I am going with the 5632 being correct and the smaller being, as you suggest, the 5631, despite the rather odd name.

If Val can provide some measurements for hers it should be easy to put a number to that too, and its lid of course. I will check the size of my Auckland ones over QBW.

These casseroles have been knocking round the forum for so long it's great to think we are getting them sorted finally, and once all FIVE are in that will be a big hole in the gallery filled.


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Wed 21 May - 21:59; edited 4 times in total (Reason for editing : Title)
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Maryr on Wed 21 May - 17:36

Well there you go! Ten points Ev for finding the bell rim casserole. And Jeremy I will dig out my Seascape in the next few days and measure it - but I don't think these measurements are always totally accurate, eg I have two mugs, both with the same number, and they are a full 0.5 cm different in both height and width across the top. Ergh!
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Wed 21 May - 22:00

Hobby Ceramics!
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5635 2.25 litre casserole

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Thu 22 May - 0:02

I found the 5635 2.25 litre casserole on trademe. In Interlude!

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/auction-731801510.htm

External sizes are given as 21.5cm OD X 19 total height.
From those figures I estimated the useful internal volume (16ID x 12H).
Using V = PixRxRxH I arrived at 2.25 litres!
(Actually 2.41, so I may have overestimated.)

I think Val's is the same one.

And here's a Seascape one with pattern on the lid!

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/auction-730902104.htm
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Ev on Thu 22 May - 11:36

In 1981 pricelists in Sundowner and Pioneer - 2 litre Casserole, 1.5 litre Casseroles,
.75 litre Casserole and Individual Casseroles they have strange numbers that also include the lid e.g. 773, 774,778 and 784.  I think we have nailed these now!  
Just have to see if we have all of the sizes on the site so they can be added to the Gallery.
5631 Individual Casserole

5632 .75 Litre Casserole

5634 1.5 Litre Casserole
????
5635 - 2.25 Litre Casserole

5642 - .50 Litre Casserole
????


Last edited by Ev on Thu 22 May - 12:49; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Thu 22 May - 12:37

The individual must be the onion bowl, 5631.
The 5642 (0.5 litre), same lid, remains a mystery.

I think Val's will turn out to be 5635. (2, 2.25 litre)
I don't remember seeing a 5634 1.5 litre, same lid.

Edit.

My decision to say that Val's casserole was the largest one, in the absence of measurements was based on the calculations from the trademe example, and the relative proportions of the knob to the whole lid, which appeared to match the larger, rather than the smaller lid size. Plus of course Val's description as "casserole" rather than "mini casserole" etc.
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5634 on trademe?

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Thu 22 May - 21:50

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Re: Tureens/Vegetable dishes/Casseroles

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