Modello duo in Candy d713

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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 22 Feb - 20:17

Still not there: number for mug SAUCER please.

Or were you saying that 3050 mugs and Modello cups used the same saucer shape but are called mug saucers or Modello saucers depending on what pattern they have on them?

I thought the 3050 mugs sat on a 4050 (155mm) saucer but I just don't know.
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Ev on Sun 22 Feb - 20:50

4050 saucer has the 3066 cup Jeremy as per my 1988 Catalogue

4071 saucer goes with the 3050/3051 or the 3078 Modello cup

Just thought of another pattern that the mug used the modello saucer ..
Elise d83100 - http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-846595807.htm

Here is another = http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-850879231.htm
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  JanPots on Mon 23 Feb - 8:51

Researching - nothing conclusive LOL just speculation

Looking at the time scale. This is all I can find

The last 3 digit reference I have is a price chart 1982
The 5 digit reference - I have is a price chart 1986

The book that shows the shape numbers goes up to 1984 and the last numbers are
• shape 3069 = 1984 Modello cup shape 3078 i.e must have been made after 1984
• item 4070 = 1983 next number 4071 saucer (both 3051/3050 mug and Modello cup)
• item 6068 = 1984 next Modello item is the jug 6074

I am still leaning to the D731 saucer belong to a 3050/3051 mug - as you would expect it to have a 5 digit number if it was connected to Modello. ( which are all 5 digit numbers) Also the theme was Italian dining.
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Ev on Mon 23 Feb - 9:34

My Patterns Database is also in numerical order and the 5 digits start at 11215 Laura Saucers and go to Leather Look Mug 96304 with a total of 159 patterns, which will only be some, not all. No time frames, just the pattern names which I hope will help when more Price Lists come to light.

The Portage refer to Price Lists that they have -
1962
1963
1966
1981
1988

Looking forward to seeing these!
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 23 Feb - 10:18

Ev wrote:4050 saucer has the 3066 cup Jeremy as per my 1988 Catalogue

4071 saucer goes with the 3050/3051 or the 3078 Modello cup

Just thought of another pattern that the mug used the modello saucer ..
Elise d83100 - http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-846595807.htm

Here is another = http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-850879231.htm

The saucers in the second link are not Modello/4071.
They are the one I was thinking of and look like the 4050 or 4042 (I haven't checked these out anywhere but the gallery.)
So, what are they?

At this point it is looking as though my "duo" is an odd pairing. That scenario would mean that Candy was used on the 3050s. Is that documented?

Janice, I just clicked to your point about dates for three versus five digit pattern number.

Also relevant maybe ...
Just checked for Candy on tm (looking for cups) and see an auction for Candy side plates in "Modello" shape [4072], also marked d713:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/Porcelain-pottery/Crown-Lynn/Plates-platters/auction-848530733.htm

From the gallery datings I see that the Modello cup will be 1984 or later but all we have for the saucer there (and the other flatware) is 1982 or later. When I started wondering about the Modello cup as a coffee can at the start of this topic my question was is it a modification of an earlier can shape or a completely original design. As the diameter differed I have settled on the latter (original design) and would EXPECT the flatware to date from the same time ie 1984+ rather than 1982+. I need to check back on you thoughts re 5 digit pattern numbers.

JanPots wrote:I never found anywhere where is it was said... but the 1981 price list had the 5 digits..
edits...  1981 & 1982 price list has 3 digits and the 1986 price list has 5 digits

Putting the last two bits of data (my EXPECTATION of the date of Modello flatware and date for 5 digit numbering together I date the Candy Modello saucer as 1984-1986. A matched Candy 3050 would also date from that period, likewise the Candy side plates from the auction I linked.

Of course I could be wrong but I also expect that the Modello shapes and the NAMED Modello patterns would have been designed together and the use of a Modello saucer with an earlier cup shape would have come later. That does not fit with the three digit pattern number on the Modello saucer, unless they just continued using the old d713 stamp.
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Ev on Mon 23 Feb - 12:33

My goodness Jeremy you have done it again!!

Here is the saucer that you were meaning 4042
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/486910/Saucer_-_Islamic_screen_design
which is from the Mocha range ....

This makes the saucer in the Gallery incorrect, so we need to find one of these and fix the gallery :bowdown:
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 23 Feb - 13:14

It was hard work writing and I guess hard reading too.

I am pleased you were able to get something useful out of it!
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  JanPots on Mon 23 Feb - 13:27

I just had a thought !! the shape of the "New York, Tempo, Hanover " plates are those very flat profile, with a rim like the Modello style... I was trying to figure out the shape of those ages ago-- now me thinks they could very well be the same? I don't have any Modello plates to do the comparison...
Some very good thinking there Jeremy - So did they bring out the cup as a "new" item and team it up with "old" shapes for flatware is that what you mean, I got a bit lost - I will have a look at it later. ( I am meant to be working not crown lynning LOL silent )
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 23 Feb - 16:09

No info here, just opinion.

All together or cups later: that is the big question Janice. The dates we have so far do not give us enough information. I'm enjoying the thought that is was a style change that all happened together.

The Modello flatware is crisp, with lots of flat; curves secondary to the flat and only as needed. The Modello cans go so well with the flatware: the junction of side and base is clean, the handles minimal. Together cup and saucer are a radical design change.

I'm a bit uncomfortable with the 3050-mug/Modello-saucer combination stylistically. The 3050 mugs although straight sided are "soft" at the base, and the handles (by comparison with those on the Modello can are flabby. I may be letting my personal prejudice speak here: I prefer the idea of mug-and-coaster to that of mug-and-saucer.

(I may have to eat my words though and find a Candy 3050 to go with my saucer as this story unfolds. Until now I have not been a fan of the Candy pattern.)
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Ev on Mon 23 Feb - 16:45

I approve of the personal opinion bit Wink

Jeremy the Mocha Coffee Sets all came with saucers and the mugs are 3050.
You can find some on the Portage if you search Mocha. TradeMe usually has a few sets listed too. My catalogue doesn't give the number for the saucer just a set number.

The 3050 Café Mug [Mocha Set] that I have came with a Modello Milano saucer shape 4071 and is a beautiful fit. I tried it on a few other saucers and it floated about. I don't seem to have one of those 4042 saucers anywhere and was hoping that someone else might.
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Stop press

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 23 Feb - 17:09

Now some data.

Ev, pause a while on changing the gallery, if you haven't done so.

I've just been checking Portage and it looks as though they have mis-numbered some saucers.

I consider the bisques, with the numbers in pencil, as a reliable reference.

The wide well saucer is the 4050:
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/490186/Saucer_-_bisque

Similarly shaped saucer with smaller well is the 4042:
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/490137/Saucer_-_bisque

I use the 4050s for 3038 cups (mine are all in plain white/clear glaze and acquired separately): don't know if it is right but the fit is perfect - not tight, not baggy. The 3050 mugs are a real sloppy fit on the 4050 saucer (so may belong on 4042).

I'll check the gallery now.

Oops!!! Could be my 3038s are on 4029s.
Need to keep on at this but have dinner to prepare.

4029:
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/490135/Saucer_-_bisque

Maybe not then re 3038s.

I'm getting lost. Must make meatballs!

Later ...
I see elsewhere that 3038s should be on 4029s but I'm not sure atm whether mine are 4029s or 4050s. Will check diameters on Portage. OK mine are 4050s as they are about 150mm diameter and the 4029s are 144mm. So, wrong saucer but looks good. Now I have to see if I can find some white 4029s. I really don't like 4039 saucers!


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Mon 23 Feb - 18:30; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Ev on Mon 23 Feb - 17:14

I have taken the 4042 out of the gallery and I will post it here.



I only chose this saucer to fit the description ..... rim lipped saucer.
I will have to look when I get time as I may have posted other sizes from this range.... gahhhh
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 23 Feb - 17:16

I edited above.
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Ev on Tue 24 Feb - 18:27

Here we have a listing for the Islamic Mugs and the matching saucers which will be ...?

http://www.trademe.co.nz/pottery-glass/porcelain-pottery/crown-lynn/cups-saucers/auction-851769766.htm

The 3050 Islamic Mug on the Portage site:
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/486909/Mug_-_Islamic_screen_design

and the saucer ....... 4042 ?

http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/486910/Saucer_-_Islamic_screen_design

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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Wed 25 Feb - 14:34

4042 with assistance from Portage

Portage call their Islamic saucer a 4042 and give an OD of 148mm and height 22mm:
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/486910/Saucer_-_Islamic_screen_design
It appears to have a wide cup well.

Portage's index saucer for 4042 ("4042" written in pencil) is 150mm OD and 18 H:
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/490137/Saucer_-_bisque
Trouble is that it appears to have a small cup well AND they call it a 4050

These outside diameters are in the same ballpark, but the cup well size and heights vary.

I have a wide well saucer that also measures 148mm OD and height i22mm.
The fit of a 3050 mug (and I am pretty sure it is NOT a 3812) is sloppy.

Note: The SAME 3050 MUG does NOT even fit comfortably into the well of the "Modello" "Candy" saucer.

4050 with assistance from Portage

Portage give the OD measurement for their 4050 "index" saucer as 155mm and height 22mm. It appears to have a wide cup well.
http://www.nzmuseums.co.nz/account/3384/object/490186/Saucer_-_bisque

Portage's only other holding for 4050 is the one marked "4042"

While 148-150mm is a difference that can be attributed to variations in measuring and examples measured 150-155 is a big jump.

Portage do not give cup well sizes on their webfiles.

Without putting saucers side by side I cannot see a way to work this out, unless the documentation (ads and CL records) matches saucer shape numbers to patterns.

One possible explanation (and there could be as many explanations as people want to offer) is that the shapes represented by the numbers changed over time. I offer this explanation for the two different handles used on the "3038" cup. Complicate this by keeping stocks of redundant shapes and we have an impossible task.

Further annoying possible factors to consider or ignore.
Something that has not been addressed is the possiblity of moisture absorbtion and consequent swelling in bisques over time and/or whether on glazing and refiring a piece of pottery gets bigger from the thickness of the glaze or smaller from more moisture being driven out. Is this flatware single or double fired, ie are glazed saucers fired from greenware or bisque? I'm guessing glaze goes on bisque here. I worked in the bisque department at CL (1976 I think) which doubled as the decorating department. My drum for smashing bisque seconds was at the end of a work table where the "girls" were hand decorating.
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Ev on Wed 25 Feb - 15:37

That's a lot to take in at once Jeremy, but I just want to acknowledge that Crown Lynn high fired their bisque to around 1180 or was it 1140 and lower fired the glaze.

You worked at Crown Lynn affraid
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Wed 25 Feb - 16:03

It was the place to work when you lived nearby.

Mine was a school holiday job Ev. Almost everyone in our rugby league team (Blockhouse Bay Cougers) was there. And because of various bonus systems we all took home the same pay, about $30 per week. Some got a bonus just for turning up to work. I was pulling carts and breaking seconds.

My mother worked there at about the same time, probably a part-timer. She fettled. I remember her coming home quite grubby.

No hurry on the previous post. I think it simply won't be hurried.
Portage will provide many answers but also more questions, like this one.

---------
26/2/15
Cup and saucer fits.
I now have a single white "4029 Two angle wide well saucer 25.6.75" to go with my two "3038 - similar to 3036 with 3056 handle 12.9.75". Hopefully I will find another. I really dislike this saucer shape, but then I find the proportions of the 3038s
ill-proportioned after spending so many years looking at Cook&Serve cans. I have copied the dates for cup and saucer and note that the saucer arrive 2 1/2 months ahead of the cup: I wonder if that has some bearing on the two different 3038 versions.
The Modello can is better proportioned than the 3038s and probably a more realistic size than the 782s, although not as cute.
My Modello saucer will not hold a 3050 mug comfortably. The footring sits on the sides of the well and see-saws.
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Re: Modello duo in Candy d713

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sat 14 Mar - 11:14

Yup, totally stumbling in the dark. Buying in ignorance just to have a reasonably cheap single example of the Modello cup shape. I was pleased to see the Modello plates in Candy too as this reduces the chance of a random pairing of pattern and shape that I suggested above.

I just popped back into this topic to note how much the Modello cups look like Mikassa cups, which I am seeing all over the place atm. The Crown Lynn cans are higher and have a slightly different handle but nevertheless they are very reminiscent of the Japanese ones.

If CL based their Modello can design on the Mikassa then congrats to them. From my observation, Mikassa tableware is always rather lovely. I would post a picture if I had one but do not. I must remember to snap one sometime.
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