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Medium Sized Oval Platter 1631

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Medium Sized Oval Platter 1631

Post  Jonno on Fri 22 May - 22:04

Spotted a few days ago, plain white Crown Lynn Supervitrified ware 1362
This shape is missing on page 5 of the 4 digit cast earthenware series 1000-1599.

No Camera and in a hurry at the time, happy to go back and try to get a photo
or at least  the measurements.
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Re: Medium Sized Oval Platter 1631

Post  Ev on Sat 23 May - 5:59

Not sure about this Jonno as 1361 is a sugar lid and 1362 is a salt shaker. A photo of the piece and the number would be great though thanks.
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Re: Medium Sized Oval Platter 1631

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sat 23 May - 9:51

1631?
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Oval Plates are Not 1361

Post  Jonno on Sat 23 May - 16:27

Woops!!!! total confusion reigns sorry.

Firstly the 3 oval plates that I saw each have the same number at one end.
765/10V  ( These marks are quite blurred under the glaze)
and at the other end 3 different numbers.
B3J,  B4J,  and B6I (These numbers are very clear)
Numbers are all indented under the glaze.
No other markings except for the standard green CL Supervitrified logo.

When I first saw them I only looked at one plate which was the B61 and when I read
my scribbled note I took it to be 1361 sorry.

These plates measure 290x210x25 mm.

ps I don't even go to Specsavers


Last edited by Jonno on Sat 23 May - 16:29; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Alter heading)
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1631 - amended - was 1361

Post  JanPots on Sun 24 May - 8:59

Hi - just to say I edited the title from 1361 to 1631; so that when anyone searches on 1631 they will find this post.-- Janice Smile
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re1631 - amended - was 1361

Post  Jonno on Sun 24 May - 10:54

Thanks that is better ,thank goodness for moderators Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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... those mysterious numbers and letters on ashets ...

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 24 May - 13:50

Jonno, although it looks as though the 765/10 V (V for vitrified) may have become the 1631 I can't see Crown Lynn putting both numbers on your ashets.

I offered the number 1631 before you wrote that they were already marked as 765s.

I suspect that the numbers you referred to originally in this topic are the ones that Val brought to our attention, that appear sometimes on (usually but not exclusively on) vitrified wares, here:

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t5155-those-mysterious-numbers-and-letters-on-ashets#19182

I think you observation that there are number and letter combinations (beyond the obvious V for vitrified) is consistent with those strange numberings for which we have yet to find an explanation.

...
[Curiously the number 765/10 suggests a smaller ashet than the measurements you give, as 290mm long is much closer to 12in than 10 inches and I would therefore expect them to be 765/12 (plus V for vitrified).]

And I go on ...
... this time about "Supervitrified".
I think Val said in one of her books that the supervitrified ware appeared from [about] 1970. My observation (from my vit saucers) so far gives me 1969, except on wares produced for Gibsons & Paterson where it was possibly used as early as 1962, supposing that year numbering on Gs&P wares is consistent with other vitrified ware. As there appears to be a cross-over in dates for vitrified and supervitrified stamps would I be right in thinking that "Supervitrified" refers to heavy weight vit crockery but that lightweight vit only received the "Vitrified" mark?
This is consistent with Jonno's 765s which are heavyweight vit stamped supervitrified and will date from before 17.4.68 when the four digit number 1631 was first produced.
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re ... those mysterious numbers and letters on ashets ...

Post  Jonno on Sun 24 May - 17:37

Jeremy , Firstly from my post of 23rd May.

" When I first saw them I only looked at one plate which was the B61 and when I read my scribbled note I took it to be 1361 sorry.
These plates measure 290x210x25 mm. "

So. 1361 has never been a number relative to these oval plates it was an error on my part.

Whilst I measured the 3 plates carefully I was obliged to use a dressmaking tape but am quite clear that they were as noted . I have been using the "measure twice cut once" rule for several decades.

Looking at your reference to Val's comments , thanks for that, I can confirm that the B3J/B4J/B6I marks in the photos in her post show the same individual metal stamp mark as I noted on the 3 plates I saw. Quite different to the 'blurred' impression of the 765/10V marks. The sharp B3J etc marks had been made with individual stamps and I could see the mark left by the body of the stamp.

Finally about Vitrified and Super Vitrified. It is my opinion that the use of the prefix Super was a marketing ploy by Crown Lynn. Clay based objects are vitrified when they are fired at a sufficiently high temperature to vitrify the body so that it becomes glass like and is a solid mass without any voids such as are present in lower temperature
products , earthenware for instance.Of course there is a lot more chemistry and
skill involved than that statement might suggest.

Whilst SuperVitrified is common on CL backstamps I have been unable to find it in either of Val's books. Lightweight Vitrified is first mentioned on relation to coffee cans about 1963 but the earlier mention of vitrified is 1943 in reference to the Bowls for the US Forces. Again in 1965 Light weight vitrified is mentioned as being used in the special range developed for Air New Zealand and their the new DC8 fleet.

Finally whilst the 3 plates were identical , except for the numbers two were of a good clean white body but the third was a dull sightly off white maybe date of manufacture
or simply the clay mix variations.

Hope this helps. Ah Sweet Mystery.......

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Re: Medium Sized Oval Platter 1631

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sun 24 May - 18:27

Yeah, I did not check either of Val's books before writing about "Supervitrified" as I should have, and have not yet done. It was a memory of someone else's comment but I cannot remover where.

The first use of "Supervitrified" that I am aware of is on Anne's Gibsons & Paterson demitasses, in particular the "Galaxy" one:
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4077-3-different-demitasse-cups-including-ascot-galaxy-and-riviera#13884
Anne's cup is also the earliest piece I am aware of where a date forms an integral part of the backstamp.

As this first use was for Gs&P I would agree that it could have been introduced as a marketing ploy when the competing English vitrified hotel wares had simply "Vitrified": oneupmanship.

I usually just tinker with cups, saucers and mugs so I lose track of what marks appear on ashets etc.

Thank you for bringing it to my attention that the use of supervitrified, other than on Gs&P wares, commenced earlier than I had thought. I am sure there are some articles somewhere referring to it.

As to date stamping vitrified and supervitrified, beyond Gs&P, the earliest I have seen yet is, from memory, either 1965 or 1966. You did not mention a date on the supervitrified backstamps of your 765 ashets: are there any!

If not, then maybe the impressed numbers and letters are a date code.

I suggested that supervitrified was used for the heavier vitrified wares and just vitrified for the lighter ones because I have plenty of examples of the plain vitrified stamp used later than your ashets, but, only on lighter wares.

My earliest saucer with a "supervitrified" stamp is a roll edge 4019 which was first produced in 1969. My examples of the 4615 saucer (which 4619 replaced) are quite heavy (but not as heavy as 4619) and have dated vitrified backstamps, except for the "Reflections" ones which have undated black star and crown vitrified stamps.

Where this is going is that Crown Lynn used a supervitrified stamp from as early as 1962, but NOT ON ALL vitrified wares made after 1962.
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Re: Medium Sized Oval Platter 1631

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