two 532 cups of different sizes, and 803 and 805 saucers

Ev's posting of the description of the 803 saucer being the saucer for the 753 cup has prompted me to start looking at my different saucer sizes, as well as different cup sizes.

Addressing the cups first, I have commented elsewhere on varying sizes for cups that appear to have the same number.

I have compared two cups here both of which look like documented photos of the 753 cup. Ev has also shown me a photo of some very early cup shapes (with no numbers shown), one of which also looks like a 753.

I believe now that numbering commenced very early in Crown Lynn history and there are hints that it dates from Ambrico days (vase shapes), but since the start of numbering designs were modified numerous times thus it is hard to know whether cups that appear to be the same shape actually have the same shape number.

I like to think that the two examples I show here for comparison are both shape number 753, and that the lefthand one is perhaps the earliest version (not Ambrico straw coloured but off white under clear glaze) and the other the last.


unmarked cup: 72 mm H x 83 OD x 44 footring
55+ pink cup: 75 H x 87 OD x 46 footring

The photos clearly show the differences in height (top), diameter at lip (left) and foot (right) The handles are near enough the same in shape and size and are positioned nearly equidistant from the tops of the cups, rather than the bases.

Sovereign British duo 753/803 (?)
(The cup from this duo is a match in size for my unmarked pink cup, above.)

cup: 75 H x 87 OD x 46 footring
saucer: 27 H x 148 OD x 48 well x 46 footring

Whilst this cup and saucer are a matched pair the measurements I have given show that they are a loose fit, with up to 2mm slop between the base of the cup and the edges of the cup well. You can see this if you enlarge the photo.

There is still a lot to work to be done with saucers, which is why I put a bracketed question mark beside the number 803. As 753 cups were made for at least 10 years they may have had an earlier saucer with a different shape number, lost to us in the process of reusing shape numbers. Nevertheless if the date for the records from which Ev obtained the description for 803 approximate the date of the Sovereign British saucer then it should be correct.

Variations in saucer size

I have mentioned elsewhere that I have at least five different saucer sizes assumed to be 805s. Bearing in mind that although I am pretty sure the the Sovereign saucer (above) will turn out to be an 803 I am not absolutely certain.

This stack of saucers from late-1950s-early-1960s, below, shows size variations over just a small time period. Whether they are one or more different shapes is yet to be ascertained.

(The standard 805 saucer for 1960s 780 and 781 cups is not shown here. All these saucers are fine bodied. The standard 805s have a heavier body and are even smaller in diameter.)

saucers, top to bottom, to fit: 780 South Pacific cup, 781 tulip, 781, 753

The total difference in diameter between top and bottom saucers is about 3 mm, with differences between adjacent saucers being approximately equal, at about 1mm. (The two 781 cups, matched to the middle two saucers, are also proportionately different in size, by about 1mm in height and 2mm in diameter. Both cups have the earlier 781 handle shape. Later 781s are smaller again.)

The 3mm size difference between top and bottom saucers may be indicative of the difference between the early 805s and the 803s. Then again, the only saucer shape (so far?) documented for the 781 is an 805.


753 and 781 duos

The saucers are only 1mm different in diameter: same number or different?
_

This is an excellent intensive post Jeremy and I'm still looking for the saucers that I have that go with my 753 cup. I think we have some of those mottled saucers that go with the coloured 753 on the site somewhere. If I remember correctly Thelma has one as do others.

I have stacked my 805 saucers by "large base ring " and "smaller base ring" by that I mean if you flip them over one is has a bigger base ring than the other.... what does this mean ? maybe I should add a photo to show what I mean .....

Sorry this discussion has jumped from cup to saucer!

RING SIZE
Janice, what I have found, from memory, is that generally the base rings (on the 805-type) remain about the same size until early- or mid-60s and then there is an increase in diameter.

VARIATIONS WITHIN RING SIZE
However, on the earlier saucers, although the base ring stays close to the same diameter, some are very robust and some are quite minimal. (I have a vague idea that the 4058s may have a base with integral footring, or hollow bottom, like the plates but I have not really ventured into that area.)

COUPE SAUCER CATEGORIES
When I get around to sorting out all my earthenware coupe saucers I think there will be three main groups, the AMBRICO saucers (>1948), the LIGHTWEIGHT saucers (as posted above, 48-62?) and the later HEAVIER BODY saucers (all 805 and 4058). Stray 4-digit ones like the 4011 (Thorpe), 4017 (jumbo), 4018 (coffee can) and 4062 (Classique) will be a separate group as they are clearly defined.

EARLY NUMBERS LOST?
The only early numbers we have to work with so far (demis aside) I think are the 744 (wide well saucer), 803, and 805. I'm thinking that while the 700s date from early days the 800s appear to start at about 1959, so with number replacements in the 700s we might have lost a few shape numbers and unless some very early documentation is found there may be little chance of identifying them. That may also include the crimp edged saucer. Jim's crimped cup has a 48-55 mark and my matching saucer has a 55+, but it looks as though the crimped shapes would not have endured beyond 1960 or they would have appeared in some of the photos.

SAME SHAPE OR DIFFERENT SHAPE?
Variation in sizes. As there is variation in size of saucers with the standard well size, as noted in the original post, the big question for the pre-1960 saucers will be are they one shape, but modified over time, or separate shapes. Then, if they are just one shape, is the number 805 (and/or 803) or an earlier number that is lost to us. If we have distinct sizes with backstamps (or patterns) indicating that they are from same period it should be clear that the will have different numbers.

PREVIOUS DISCUSSION
https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t5481-unusual-e-w-saucer-shapes-jumbo-jumbo-4062
As I received such a surprise finding that my wide flat one was a 4062, despite looking as though it was an earlier shape, I will need to find the diameter of the 4011 Thorpe saucer to see whether my jumbo jumbo (OD 156, well 52) is not one of those. I will have a look at Portage and see if they have one. Nope, they only have the 805 Thorpe! Auckland Museum gives a diameter for a Thorpe saucer of 170mm so mine is something different.
http://www.aucklandmuseum.com/collections-research/collections/record/am_humanhistory-object-5132?p=2&k=crown%20lynn%20thorpe&ordinal=38

My Santa Barbara Thorpe saucer is 170mm and it's massive compared to any other saucers that I have.
When I get a chance I will list all of the cups and saucers from the Modellers Notes from 1959 to 1964 and I'm surprised at how few there are.

Here we go ... 5 years of daily written records of work done by Modeller Tam Mitchell
but we are only considering cups and saucers.  Crikey they made a lot of vases during this period !!

1959
Sept 11th 700 Handle for jiggering [diagram of a handle]

Nov 26th Model and block handle to cup (not 700) [diagram of what looks like a railway cup but isn't ...?]

1960
April 7th Model Coffee Cup & Handle (Cup Wrong)
April 8th Remodel "       "         "
April 11th Block and Orig Case of Coffee Cup 859
May 18th Remodel new Coffee Cup slightly smaller
 "      "    Remodel 781 Cup Handle shank thickened above ?

1961
June 26th Model 5 Cups and Model 5 Handles
Aug 15th Model Flattish saucer
Aug 16th Remodel Foot to No5 cup of 26th June (Casting & Mould)

1962
March 7th Remodel & Block Navy Mug (Altered Foot)
March 10th? Altered Foot of 419 (Rounded)
Oct 19th Draw up new L.W. Hotel type Cup & Saucer [dia is not a 781]
Mould & Orig Case of saucer (Saucer Variation on 743)

More to come ...

Tam Mitchell wrote:
1962
March 7th Remodel & Block Navy Mug (Altered Foot)
March 10th? Altered Foot of 419 (Rounded)

Jeremy wrote:
This mug, from some time between 1955 and 1962 is heavier, thicker and bigger in all dimensions than my earlier 48-55 one.

I did not notice the specific changes that Tam Mitchell made wrt the foot.
It looks the same but it's effectively a new shape.
I will look now.

I love this Ev. Thanks

It's the same Shape number Jeremy, just refined.
Please see the last line above which I just added ....

1962 cont.,

Oct 23rd Model Cup & Handle [diagram of cup with straight sides?]

1963

April 26th Model 3 Handles & alter two 781 Handles for 781 Trials
June 1st Remodel Meakins Type Handle for 781
July 24th New 781 Handle like old, slightly smaller & straighten top
July 25th New Shallow Cup for Airways
Aug 13th Widen Handle Mould for Airways Cup
Sept 11th Alter well to 743 to fit 745 foot
Oct 5th Block Coffee Handle
Oct 9th Model Tallish Hotel Cup
Oct 10th Model Handle Tallish Hotel Cup
Oct 31st Enlarge & Thicken new handle for shallow cup [diag of Air NZ cup handle]

1964

Feb 11th Model New Cup Bomb
Feb 13th Draw up replacement Mug to 419
Feb 16th Alter 743 near edge
Sept 25th Coffee Mug model (to try on Cup jigger lifted 2")
Sept 30th Model Ball Handle for 3010 cup
Oct 16th Model New Semi Straight-side cup (Mockups)
Oct 20th Handle for above
Oct 22nd Model saucer for Coffee
Oct 23rd Model American Coffee Cup
Oct 27th Model Ball Handle to American Cup
Nov 4th Handle for beaker

Yes Ev re 419 I know they are are the same number but what I was getting at is that with so many differences he has effectively designed a new shape of mug. Side by side the two are quite distinct. They feel quite different too. I have suggested elsewhere that the early version MAY have been copied from overseas but the later version has had so much work it is definitely unique to CL.

So, there is a lot of info on the 781 and 1963 appears to be the first year of the version we are familiar with as the "colour glaze tulip". I think it must be about this time that the impressed New Zealand mark started to appear too. (Note that it is absent from the 780s.)

There is lots to process here but the obvious one is the shaping of the 781 handles.
Especially the reference to Meakin. You can see why people confuse the two.

I had already concluded for myself that the earliest 781 shape (fine body, slightly bigger, different handle) could not be earlier than 1959, but 1963 for that version is perhaps a year later than I thought. I'll have to check back to see when the FIRST 781s appeared. As noted elsewhere I have two in different sizes in the thin body type so they must have been made for a very short time.

The early 1960s sure is a big time for rationalising redesigning and innovating cup shapes after very little change in the 1950s, "the wilderness years". I think one of those referred to will be the 802. I'm still looking at the two completely different fathers cup shapes both being 802, and the 832 remaining a mystery.

Thanks for taking the time to transcribe all that Ev.

Would like to find this 745 Hotel Cup and 743 Hotel Saucer that they refer to!!!!!
Is there a vitrified cup that we haven't identified yet?

There's Jim's one:
https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t6635-jim-s-small-vitrified-coffee-cup-1948-55#26264
The 48-55 would make it an original use of the number.
It has a 48mm footring.

There are also the cups that look like a small 700s.
They have both railway and Carlton cup handles.
I still haven't worked out how many different versions there are. Maybe 3 or more.
I think perhaps they are more likely to be among the unidentified early 700s (70_).

I still haven't really studied the list. Re 743: The saucer for the Air NZ cup shape has yet to receive a number. It is different from the 739 both in profile and in having a wider well. The 783 cup has a 44mm footring so it does fit onto a 739, just. (My "Air New Zealand" shape duo is actually Red Tango and dated 1970s.)

1962 OCT 19 LW hotel cup: possibly too early for 3610, may be early version of 783 etc. but later entries specifically refer to "New Shallow cup for Airways. If it doesn't look like 781 then it shouldn't be be 863 either, although the timing is right, but then again my assumption has always been that the 863 is made from the same jigger as 781.
One other option is the cup we have only seen on the pulled tm auction and in the newspaper photo, like a footed 753 with a curve- in top. I can't remember how to find that on the forum so may link it later. (Remember the cup is red with white top and white handle.)

Later ...
"1964 Feb 16th Alter 743 near edge"
This strengthens my feeling that 743 could be the saucer to 783.
Simply because I can't think of another vit saucer unaccounted for at that time.
May have something to do with its use as the first of saucer (of many) for the 3610 cup, which appears on one of the old photos.