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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jonno Thu 23 Feb - 17:03

Found this quaint lidded pot , lid is a bit warped colour is a fairly unusual gunmetal blue.
No marks apart from # with dot before and after.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.][You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

ps I now see that Heather states that this was the previous number for Cook & Serve 5620


Last edited by Jonno on Thu 23 Feb - 17:18; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : comment about 5620)
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Ev Fri 24 Feb - 8:11

We had another query about this shape from someone in Australia who had a few pieces in this colour if I remember correctly.
I'm surprised about the lid not fitting as it would have been classed as a second. Maybe it went to the Outlet Shops?
Is it the lid or the basin that is warped?
Easy to tell if you put the lid on something flat.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty re 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jonno Fri 24 Feb - 8:25

Thats very interesting my one has a fault on both lid and body as though they may have had a 'bump' during production. It certainly is a second and the lack of any mark except the number is unusual so it becomes one of my curious oddities collection.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Ev Fri 19 Oct - 7:22

Found an article about this new 'Chateau Range' in a December 1969 Ceramics mag. There were five Casseroles ranging from half a pint to four pints and a ramekin glazed in Aquamarine and made at the Titian factory. [In 1977 these were given a new four digit number starting with 5.]
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jonno Fri 19 Oct - 9:15

Thanks for that Ev , once again your super sleuth eyes do the business.
At the same time it is interesting to me that I was looking at that curious little piece only yesterday and wondering if I would ever find out anything more about it and bingo I have.

So did CL name this colour Aquamarine and was this colour used on any other items? not according to a search of this site.

Heather has already noted that the range went to market as Cook & Serve.

Ah Sweet Mystery of............
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Ev Fri 19 Oct - 9:54

Here is a post which shows other ware glazed in that colour which Budgie calls Jungle Green Wink No I've never come across the Aquamarine name before and will have to check the Database to see if it's there.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jonno Fri 19 Oct - 10:03

Thanks again Ev,
I just love Budgies "Jungle Green" name for the colour.
At the same time I notice that his pieces are finished in a high gloss glaze my sample is a soft matte finish .
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty 1645 lidded pot/casserole Mark Cleverley Expo 70 Aquamarine 5620

Post  Jeremy Ashford Mon 4 Nov - 15:43

I've just been reading Michael Smythe's "New Zealand by Design", Godwit 2011.
There is some good pottery info there, and as I don't have the later Gail Henry/Lambert book I don't know if it's already been said there.
Anyway...
... on page 200 there is a photo of some of the dinnerware Mark Cleverley designed for the "Geyser Room" at Expo 70 Osaka. Included in those pieces is what looked at first to me like a 5620 casserole with a small knob. There is another one illustrated in another topic on the forum in Pioneer glaze here:
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That is what I was looking for when I found this topic.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
Jonno's 1645 and Rufus' 5620 side by side. Other than the glaze they look identical.
(But different from the later 5620 with integrated knob.)

However, to continue...
... the pot illustrated (in Smyth) looks very (very) like Jonno's 1645 illustrated above.
The photo there is credited to "Michael Payne, photographer unknown".
I'd love to scan it and post it but that is not allowed.

Also in that photo is a 172 pattern plate as seen here:
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As far as the colour goes...
...it appears to be the same glaze colour as my Mark Cleverley tall coffee set!
I think someone used the name "Aquamarine" in describing the alternative glazes for the coffee set.
When I read that I thought "what...?"

To confirm: Val wrote (Monk 1, p122) of the 1968/1969 Mark Cleverley tall coffee set "finished in dark brown or aquamarine", and (in Monk 2, p146) "brown- or teal-glazed". When I bought it off trademe the photos showed it looking very, very blue but I have not been able to light it in such a way as to re-create the colour.

Any thoughts on any of this, anyone?


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Mon 4 Nov - 17:18; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : add more, and more, and more, and more)
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Ev Thu 7 Nov - 15:52

My 1645, which looks much darker than it really is ....

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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty A Tale of Two Casseroles

Post  Jeremy Ashford Mon 9 Dec - 11:05

Wow, I found a 1645!
The colour rendering here is pretty close to the real thing.
The glaze is shiny.
The 1645 and 5620 appear to be made of the same material.
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1645 and 5620 (exaggerated size difference shown here is unintentional)
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1645 and 5620, bases and marks
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_______Foot ring_______________Lid___________Top and overall width_
____________THE 1645 and 5620 ARE DIFFERENT SIZES!______________

Although about the same height the 1645 is wider than the 5620 by about 5mm.
Thus, they are not the same "shape".

I cannot explain Rufus' "5620" other than to suggest that at some time the small casserole was re-engineered. See:
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I compared the 1645 with a few 5620s, so this 5620 may be taken as a fair example.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty re A Tale of Two Casseroles

Post  Jonno Mon 9 Dec - 22:11

Interesting that you have found and spotted this Jeremy.
It seems to me that when CL changed to 5620 from 1645 for these small casseroles
they seemed to have also changed or modified the shape slightly before releasing under the Cook & Serve backstamp.

The definite change of colour and glaze finish is also apparent, only my example has the lo-gloss or satin finish creating a different hand and colour which is why I called it 'Gunmetal Blue'.  The others are all high gloss regardless of the glaze colour.


Last edited by Jonno on Mon 9 Dec - 22:17; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling)
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jeremy Ashford Tue 10 Dec - 7:38

Jonno,
Yours does seem to be the exception.
The other three posted, mine and those of Ev and Budgie, are all shiny. An apparent variation in the degree of shine may be in the photography so it is problematic attempting to compare them without them being side by side. Nevertheless yours does appear to be distinctly different. So, a few questions to see how your one fits in the picture.

What size is yours?
(Mine: 1645 is 125mm OD across the top, 5620 is 120.)
The glaze: as yours is not shiny, is there any hint of the bluish tinge that appears on mine, and on other items I have mentioned in a topic titled "Aquamarine"?
(I note you call it "Gunmetal BLUE" so I presume so, but it does look green to me in the photo.)

So far the 1645 has only turned up with the Aquamarine/Gunmetal Blue glaze.
(Rufus' example is numbered 5620!. As he worked at Crown Lynn his may be a sample/prototype for 5620.)

I wonder if there were other colours. If not, then I wonder if perhaps this design was developed initially for Expo 70, as they certainly appeared there, and the timing is right.
That could explain a redesigned production model for the 5620s.

Mark Cleverley's coffee set (for which Aquamarine was one of the two glazes offered) was made at Luke Adams I understand but I believe the 1645s came from the Titian factory (or was that the 5620s?). That may have some bearing on this story.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Ev Tue 10 Dec - 18:43

Jeremy Ashford wrote:

Mark Cleverley's coffee set (for which Aquamarine was one of the two glazes offered) was made at Luke Adams I understand but I believe the 1645s came from the Titian factory (or was that the 5620s?). That may have some bearing on this story.

Jeremy, Mark Cleverley's coffee set was glazed in the Lucow glaze and so was the Ngakura ware along with heaps of other things. The Aquamarine glaze name was only in an article about these little casseroles in the Crown Lynn Ceramics magazine. Haven't seen it anywhere else. Lucow is a matt glaze and that Aquamarine which is very dark for that name is shiney, so a totally different glaze altogether.
I checked the records and the 1645 were first made at the Titian factory in 1969
The 5620's were first made in 1976 and it says [was 1645] but not where they were made. It is possible that these were made at the New Lynn factory ...... as they are classed as Vitrified Basins with that new number.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jeremy Ashford Tue 10 Dec - 20:54

Some of what I have written below refers to the "Aquamarine" topic.

Ev, I have referenced aquamarine on Cleverley above to Val (...NZ Icon, p122),
and although have no idea where her information comes from, I trust it to be reliable.
So the word aquamarine HAS been used to describe both the Cleverley and the 1645.

I don't know whether the word "matt" has a meaning in pottery that is contrary to common usage but there is no way I'd describe the glaze on my Cleverley's coffee set so. As I wrote above, it is less shiny than the 1645, and certainly not glossy, but the word "matt" just does not fit.

I simply sat three Crown Lynn items together, noted similarities and differences.

The item missing from the discussion so far is the 1619. The Cleverley is certainly a closer match to the 1619 than to the 1645. Have you any information on where the 1619s were produced? Despite the shape being common enough very few turn up at auction, and they do tend to be in hotel colours.

I'm sure the presence of this glaze on this item is odd. Thus the suggestion, perhaps understated, that a common denominator may have been Osaka.

Can you please direct me to detailed, hopefully close-up, photos of "the Lucow glaze" so I can see what it looks like. I have looked at mrnarna's Cleverley set and it appears to be black and glossy. I've looked at your coffee pot, and your caption seems to match the photo. My set appears to match your photo on colour, but not on finish.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  mumof1 Wed 11 Dec - 7:22

Jeremy, the photo is not great, but may help a little? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Ev Wed 11 Dec - 7:55

Lucow is blue where it pools, but otherwise is a deep dark greenish blue.  [Zana called it brown?]
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The Lucow glaze is just so hard to get a true colour of on digital ....
It has a matt sheen rather than a glassy reflective appearance.  I've tried to find a definition and found that it is spelt matte in the US. The feel is 'waxy' to my way of thinking.  Rather hard to describe, but I know a matt glaze the moment I see it.   There are various forms of a matt glaze e.g.  Semi matt.  The Crown Lynn Earthstone range is glazed in a matt glaze.

Yes I saw Val's mention of aquamarine, but as I said I've only come across it in that article, not in any of the records ..... yet.

The 1619 would have been made at the Crown Lynn factory as it is vitrified.  Thanks to your questions I've only just realised this fact, that all of the vitrified ware was made there.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jeremy Ashford Wed 11 Dec - 14:00

Thanks Ev, mumof1, for enlightening me on Lucow.
Without doubt that is the glaze on my Cleverley. Not matt by the normal meaning but within definitions for glaze. OK.

For me there remains a problem of identifying the glaze on the 1619 hot-water pot.
Until such time as you have it before you, Ev, you will have to rely on my photos, infamously reflective. I cleaned it with meths and wiped dry to remove grease and attempted unsuccessfully to remove reflections (which come from all directions in my dining room).

The question is, is this Lucow too? If the pot was made at New Lynn presumably it was glazed there too. Unlike the Cleverley set, which are textured castings, this is an allover smooth casting so the look of the glaze will already be different.
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Beneath the obvious reflections on the shoulder are areas of colour variation.
Although the colours may not be accurately represented the variation is.
Typically the bluer colour extends from the shoulder about a third of the way down the pot forming an irregular line around the circumference. There is no pooling as such on this pot but one would expect the glaze to be thicker on horizontal surfaces (ie near the shoulder) than vertical (lower sides).
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Inside the spout. Again no pooling but definitely blue where the outer glaze overlays the inner white glaze.
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The rim. As at the spout a distinct blue flash where the outer glaze overlays the white inner.
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1645 Possible Titian Trial pot? Empty re Re: 1645 Possible Titian Trial pot?

Post  Jonno Wed 11 Dec - 16:54

Jeremy,
Sorry unable to help with actual measurements of my 1645 , have recently shifted and may be a wee while before I can get my hands on my funny wobbly lidded example, sadly I have no notes about measurements but recall that it was very similar to the Cook & Serve examples you have shown ( I have had these also but since sold)

The use of 'Gunmetal Blue' as the colour was my guess at the time when no other examples had been seen on the site but I am happy to accept Aquamarine or some other word to describe the colour but more importantly can confirm that the colour I am seeing at the top of this thread on my screen is very close to the actual colour of my pot and yes there is a blue tone certainly not green and the sheen of the glaze is about right also, matte or semi-gloss but certainly not high gloss as all the other examples seem to be.

Hope this helps.

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