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» Help to identify unusual gourd shaped vessel - Denys Hadfield
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 14:02 by kitsch

» My other Shape 21 vase in use...
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptyYesterday at 12:51 by Ev

» Is this vase early Crown Lynn?
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptyMon 14 Oct 2024 - 17:42 by kitsch

» Jan Manley/Janna Symons
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptyMon 14 Oct 2024 - 7:21 by Ev

» Did Jim Palmer make this?
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptyMon 14 Oct 2024 - 7:18 by JanPots

» Shape 2 Vase in Use ...
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptySun 13 Oct 2024 - 13:49 by Ev

» Annette Pat. No. 785
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptySat 12 Oct 2024 - 16:55 by Tanya Matthews

» Wharetana shape 1041 salt and pepper
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptySat 12 Oct 2024 - 7:31 by Ev

» Derek Cooper - Pots & Patches jardinière with cartoon bulls mark.
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 EmptyFri 11 Oct 2024 - 16:26 by Ev

431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST.

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431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Empty Re: 431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST.

Post  Jeremy Ashford Wed 12 Nov 2014 - 16:50

I saw this yesterday when I was looking at uno's teapot.

We would need to know where her information came from to know its value as there is still the matter of double up on the numbers 431 and 432 with the lamp bases to address.

I think that even though the double up has given rise to some debate on the matter it is generally agreed that the Santa and side-handled Toby are Crown Lynn. This is reflected in the gallery.

I think maybe records were destroyed by fire in the mid fifties and numbers reissued where items were discontinued. Maybe the moulds had disappeared by that time.

I have spoken at Antiques Club to people about Santas, people who received them for Christmas when they were kids, and they appear to date from the 1940s.
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Post  Ev Thu 18 Dec 2014 - 8:56

Just need to compare Heather's Santa with Kat's shell vase.  
My word I do find Santa creepy and I think it's because of his beady eyes!

431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Santa10431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Shell10
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Post  Kat & Co. Thu 18 Dec 2014 - 9:39

I looked everywhere yesterday for the thread for the white coloured CL dog jug that sold on TM recently, it had the same shape mouth pourer as Santa..
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Post  Ev Thu 18 Dec 2014 - 11:43

Is Santa's mouth a pourer like the Bonzo jug?
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Post  Kat & Co. Thu 18 Dec 2014 - 16:39

Yes maybe the same modeller made them? cat
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Post  Jeremy Ashford Thu 18 Dec 2014 - 20:40

Santa's mouth is not an opening, just black glaze.
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Post  mike67 Fri 19 Dec 2014 - 20:33

These colours have always reminded me of the Santa mug. I had a couple of of them many years ago but was persuaded to part with them. Silly!!!
I do wonder what these are though.
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Dscn5116
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Dscn5117
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Post  Ev Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 15:43

Hellooooooo,
I wasn't aware that the Santa mug doesn't have a handle .......?

Not many mugs without a handle are there, unless they are a Japanese teabowl.
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Post  Jeremy Ashford Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 16:25

431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Santa10

Hat is handle.
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Post  Ev Wed 18 Mar 2015 - 17:07

Wot????? sort of handle is a hat ?? :O2laugh:
I've never seen the likes lolzzz
Titian did some odd handles on Toby jugs didn't they?
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431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Empty Santa as greenware at Crown Lynn

Post  Jeremy Ashford Thu 21 May 2015 - 12:31

I know it is already settled that Santa is Crown Lynn but I felt this story would add something.

I popped into the regular Age Concern garage sale today to show Maata (Martha) my photos from the Portage Museum opening which she was unable to attend with me as she had family commitments. Maata is reluctant to give personal details (including surname) but from our conversations I have deduced that she is likely in her mid to late 70s. Maata worked at CL up until 1955 at the latest, and the age 17 has been mentioned but whether that refers to when she started or finished at CL I do not know.

Anyway ...
When I had finished showing the photos I inadvertently flicked to a picture of a Santa Toby, to which I heard the surprising response: "Did you do that?"
Maata was referring not to making the Santa but to adding the colours to it;
She had only ever seen them as greenware!

Maata had to ask when CL made the colourglaze in the Portage display as it was after her time. She was not familiar with, or had no memory of the Shufflebothams or the Steenstra (who I think was after her time at CL), but did tell me that she has a coronation Loving Cup, which had belonged to her mother. She has a swan, but the black one was also new to her.

I think Maata worked mostly in fettling but she has also mentioned an X-Ray machine (or something similar) used for testing bisque wares so may have moved about a bit.
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Post  Ev Thu 21 May 2015 - 12:37

A great story Jeremy !!
Nothing is ever set in stone, as there is always room for more info.
Would love to find some info on the Santa Toby in the Portage Museum archives!
Haven't found anything older than about 1959/1960 so far.
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Post  Ev Thu 23 Aug 2018 - 10:28

For some reason I cannot find a photo of the Santa Toby numbers.
Can someone please add one as I think it matches the font on the 463 plate that oakpot posted.
The 432 Toby Jug uses the same font as the 463 plate and the plate doesn't match up with the Crown Lynn records, which show the 463 to be a lidded Cheese Keep.
So we may be onto something here. What exactly I can't be sure Laughing

432 Toby Jug from mumof1

431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 43210

463 Plate from oakpot
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 463_10
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Post  oakpot Thu 23 Aug 2018 - 16:46

The Santa mug numbers 431 are larger than the plate 463.
It seems that the base of the cheese keep has been sold separately as a decorated plate.

431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 20180815

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Post  Jeremy Ashford Thu 23 Aug 2018 - 17:01

Ev,
Oakpot's plate looks to me to be the same as the cheese plate, just without the cover.

I have asked if it is e/w or vit, as vit seems unlikely for a Royal Oak piece.

Here are a couple more 432s.
431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Image14

4 and 3 look good.

My Santa is unreadable, today at least.
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Post  Ev Thu 23 Aug 2018 - 17:31

Thanks guys as the 3's match and I am relieved to see that.
Perhaps Crown Lynn made the plates in both earthenware and vitrified ware?
Unouwanit posted two of these trays recently on Facebook and they had a persons name and 1953 on them. Yes they will be Crown Lynn.
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Post  Ev Sat 5 Dec 2020 - 9:01

Well it has taken me 8 years to hold these two Toby Jugs in question in my hands.
I was at Te Toi Uku on Wednesday and Rosemary asked me to look at a series of Toby Mugs that are in the collection.

I was really surprised at the size of the Highwayman as he was so small and the modelling workmanship was very amateurish.  Plus he has an ungainly side handle that I didn't approve of as well.  The glaze was thick and thin and I didn't like that either.  The base was discoloured so I couldn't check it as I would have liked.  I didn't warm to him at all, poor chap.

The Santa Toby on the other hand was a decent size, but I guffawed at the hat handle.  OMG who would do that?  He was spray painted in pink and grey with eye details added by hand which made him so creepy!!  The clay looked right and the weight seemed right too.  
Rosemary asked Bruce Yallop to check out these as well and he didn't think that either were Crown Lynn and he had never seen them before or any moulds that they would have been made in.  So we haven't made much progress have we?

I'm just pleased to have had to opportunity to check them out, thanks to the Museum.
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Post  Melita Thu 31 Mar 2022 - 16:11

re the Santa..I was looking on-line at the Temuka items held at AM and they have this Santa listed as Temuka....but haven't seen one anywhere else under Temuka including the Oamaru collection.

https://www.aucklandmuseum.com/collections-research/collections/record/am_humanhistory-object-10163?p=3&entm=http%3A%2F%2Fapi.aucklandmuseum.com%2Fid%2Fperson%2F1913&ordinal=4
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Post  Ev Thu 31 Mar 2022 - 16:15

Wow thanks for that Melita.
He has numbers just like Crown Lynn and I have to eat crow and agree with the majority who say he was made by Crown Lynn.
I wonder where they got their info as Temuka do not put numbers on their wares, but usually stamp them through they years.
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Post  Melita Thu 31 Mar 2022 - 16:18

They have a photo of the base and it has no number...not one I can see...(apart from a collection sticker number)..and a $6 price tag!...
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Post  Ev Thu 31 Mar 2022 - 16:23

Yes you are right! The clay doesn't look right either .... so this case isn't closed Shocked
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431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Empty Santa

Post  signal red Fri 1 Apr 2022 - 12:37

H,i I wondered if it is a toby jug or is it a christmas decoration /vase the finish is just a bit crude for a toby jug.

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Post  Ev Fri 1 Apr 2022 - 12:46

signal red wrote:H,i I wondered if it is a toby jug or is it a christmas decoration /vase the finish is just a bit crude for a toby jug.

There are no Crown Lynn records for this santa mug, so people call them different things. His hat is a weird handle. The 431 in the Crown Lynn records is the Three Faces of Eve lampbase, so I was hoping that this santa was made by someone else.
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431 Santa mug and 432 toby jug INQUEST. - Page 2 Empty The Santa Question

Post  JP Thu 29 Feb 2024 - 14:25

From my years talking with my grandmother Olive Hale on this, both jugs she considered to be Crown Lynn. I have the Santa one somewhere and will dig it out to see what markings mine has.

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Post  Maryr Thu 29 Feb 2024 - 15:20

JP how nice to hear from Olive Hale's family. I never knew her, but Olive's work was foundational in our research and writing about Crown Lynn. I greatly admire her.
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