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vit 4610 saucer for GALLERY

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vit 4610 saucer for GALLERY Empty vit 4610 saucer for GALLERY

Post  Jeremy Ashford Fri 13 Jun - 11:36

[Note that where I have written 744 below the saucer I am referring to is actually a 4017 earthenware jumbo saucer which has no three digit equivalent.]

Vitrified Saucer 4610 for GALLERY

Ev, I'm picking this coupe shaped Reflections saucer as the 743/4610 shape, and because of the date on the backstamp I'm favouring the 4610. The 4610 is described as "lightweight 743". This example is dated 1969 on the backstamp. The 4610 was introduced in 1968 (the year the 3618 coffee can was released) or earlier (from the nearest dated shape following it in the gallery, "4617 - 5.4.68"). It is the first four digit vitrified saucer.
vit 4610 saucer for GALLERY Vit310
145mm OD, 55 ID in well

This saucer is a match for the 3618 coffee can that was supposed to replace the 782 but which has only ever been seen in Reflections 842.

(Although the 3618 appears not to have replaced the Cook & Serve can, it did replace a 782 Reflections can with a single star vitrified stamp, and I have only ever seen the one of those, which I have yet to pick up from a friend in Auckland.)

vit 4610 saucer for GALLERY 74346110
(743/)4610 above, 744 below.

As the earthenware version of this can shape (the 3023) sits on a 744 jumbo cup saucer I think this saucer is a vitrified equivalent of a 744: the 743 "vit hotel saucer". The 743 is adjacent to the 744 jumbo, and the other numbers around them are also simple coupe shapes. The usual size difference associated with vitrified and earthenware shapes that are otherwise identical applies here: the vitrified is smaller and thicker.

Related Topics:
https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t5232-reflections-cups-and-saucers-attention-unouwanit-and-ducks-nuts
https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4855-coffee-can-shapes-872-3022-3023-3618-from-gallery-definitions#17755
https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t3067p15-which-cups-go-with-what-saucers#16532
https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t5249-vitrified-cups-and-saucers-a-guide#19616


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Mon 22 Jun - 15:52; edited 1 time in total
Jeremy Ashford
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Post  Ev Fri 13 Jun - 18:16

Thanks Jeremy, I will need a fresh brain to look at this proposal thoroughly.
Ev
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Post  Ev Sat 14 Jun - 8:44

4610 is a light weight 743
The 'light weight' term hasn't been identified yet has it?
I have some very old DB vitrified ware and it is extremely light weight and would have been made in the 1950's or earlier.
I would like to wait for more info on this one Jeremy, as I would like to see the 743 Hotel saucer go with the 745 Small Hotel Cup ......
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Post  Jeremy Ashford Sat 14 Jun - 10:27

I have to contradict myself here on one thing Ev.

I said this saucer was "smaller and thicker" than the jumbo E/W. Wrong!
It IS smaller, but of the SAME thickness as the jumbo.

What is lightweight? The only really lightweight item I can think to compare with is a lightweight Roydon South Pacific B&B which is earthenware: it weighs 200 gm compared to the standard weight Roydon Tamoshanter B&B which weighs 250. This saucer is thicker but actually the same weight as the South Pacific plate. The only 1960s lightweight vitrified ware I can think of off the top of my head is the coffee cans, the 782 Cook & Serve and its replacement the 3618 which sits on this saucer. By comparison with the roll edge saucers it is lightweight! On the scale it weighs in at 200gm, comparing favourably with the 792 coffee can saucer which is smaller in diameter and weighs slightly less at 195gm.

Can you direct me to any other lightweight vitrified items made in the 60s?

(As noted elsewhere the vit demi-saucer 743 was beefed up mid- to late-fifties with the addition of a roll edge, and earthenware was beefed up to, the 781/805 duo in particular was beefed up at least twice starting about 1960.

As for the 745 cup, I still harbour thoughts that this number may be the vitrified demi and the "vit" note for the 773 may be in error, leaving that number for the earthenware demi.

Is there a known vitrified cup shape that you think could be the 745?

A possible solution: if the 4610 is a light weight and this saucer is not a lightweight then it could STILL be the earlier shape, the 743, which is not flagged as light weight, but dwells among the coupe shapes. The reference to the 3D shape in the 4D definition does not necessarily mean that the named number has been discontinued as a line.
This still doesn't work for your 743/745 theory!

Ed, later. More tidying up: I just noticed my Chaleston B&B is definitely a lightweight.
Will look for number. 1966, 164-5 mm OD. Best I can find is 864 vit "light weight hotel 771/5/8/10", but the size is wrong as this is 6 1/2. The 771 reference may not necessarily apply to the sizes of the vit wares.
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Post  Ev Sun 29 Jun - 9:14

Just came across a 1961 note from the Museum....
Saucers - 744 is used with 750

Also 805 is used with 753, 754, 780 and 781

More:
Cups - 750, 753, 754, 780, 781
Saucers - 802, 832, 859

Just in case you find any of this helpful Jeremy.
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Post  Jeremy Ashford Sun 29 Jun - 10:09

The first bit of news is troubling.
There is the 750 and the 802 which appear to be the same shape and you have mentioned that Janice has both in the 752 topic. A problem with that museum photo is that it is hard to know the sizes, whether everything was laid out and photographed or individual photos were pasted together.
If the 750 is the smaller of the two, and the description of the 802 as breakfast cup suggests that is the case then it blows my theory that the 744 is the jumbo.

I wouldn't rush to move on this though.

It is good however to get a date on this note.
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Post  Jeremy Ashford Wed 2 Jul - 1:02

Warning: lots of numbers follow!

Ev, I found myself re-reading what started out as the jumbo cup topic https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t3186-need-help-with-this-jumbo-sized-cup-please#10039 but which changed direction as these shape discussions do.

Chasing backwards and forwards in the gallery descriptions I stopped for a while with the enigmatic description in lieu of picture for the 4017 (which was suggested as saucer for one or other of the larger cups): "made from 4619 mould ?? also 4610".

OK the 4619 is a rolled edge saucer, as it follows the 4615, and I don't see earthenware cups sitting on roll edge saucers so I can't see an earthenware saucer made from the same mould, BUT, the 4610 ("lightweight"), which replaces the 743 is probably not roll edge.

You were keen to match the 743 and 745 as a duo. Here goes:

Say the 700 railway cup is actually a large hotel cup, and the 702 hotel saucer is its matched saucer, then the smaller version of the railway cup shape, number two in my montage of Jim's cups (link follows), which is distinctly smaller at just over 70mm across could be the 745 "small hotel cup" and the 743 its wide-cup-well saucer. (The 744 which I've previously made a case for as the earthenware jumbo saucer fits neatly between.)

https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4828-vitrified-carlton-700-3638-and-insulator-cups#17676

I have no recollection at all of how I arrived at the 4635 for the railway cup saucer, but if all this fits together then it would make the correct shape the 4631 "was 702 hotel saucer".

What doesn't appear to work here is that there is no link in descriptions between 744 and 4017. Another time.

More on this here:
https://www.newzealandpottery.net/t6217-jeremy-s-take-on-saucer-shapes#24294
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