Latest topics
» June Palmer from sid's collection
Yesterday at 17:55 by Hannele

» Chintz
Yesterday at 6:31 by Ev

» Temuka bowl - for gallery
Sat 22 Sep - 19:05 by Hannele

» Pattern for the gallery. Gilbert
Sat 22 Sep - 17:11 by Ev

» So is this a Crown Lynn deer?
Sat 22 Sep - 13:56 by Maryr

» Manawatu golf oval plate
Sat 22 Sep - 12:48 by JanPots

» Dating the patterns - Summer Sky, Spring Shadow, Shadow Brown
Thu 20 Sep - 21:35 by BrunoL

» For Barbara's Sugar bowl with flat lid/or coaster ...
Thu 20 Sep - 7:13 by Ev

» Marigold Forma
Wed 19 Sep - 12:41 by Ev


Vitrified Cups and Saucers---A Guide

Go down

Vitrified Cups and Saucers---A Guide

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Sat 7 Jun - 15:22

This topic should help forum members and visitors to make correct matches of vitrified cups and saucers. (This is a work in progress. I have the shapes, but still need to find some numbers. I will add measurements in time.)
------
782/792 Cook & Serve coffee can duo.

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t1122-cook-serve-coffee-cans-additions-to-collection
------
3618 Replacement for Cook & Serve coffee can 782. As the earthenware version of this cup sits on a 744 jumbo cup saucer I think this saucer is a vitrified equivalent of a 744: I can find no number to match this. Saucer dated 1969.
[Ed 13/6/14 For a number of reasons I'm favouring the 743/4610 saucer shape: 743 vit hotel saucer; 4610 lightweight 743. The 743 is adjacent to the 744 jumbo which this saucer approximates as a vit version, and the other numbers around them are also simple coupe shapes. The 4610 was introduced in 1968 (the year the 3619 was released) or earlier so it is my pick.]
[Ed 16/6/14 checking back over old tm photos I see "lazzo" had the same combination of can and saucer in an auction for mixed ca1969 Reflections pieces. I will have a six-set of these later in the week when my matching saucers arrive.]

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t5232-reflections-cups-and-saucers-attention-unouwanit-and-ducks-nuts
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4855-coffee-can-shapes-872-3022-3023-3618-from-gallery-definitions#17755
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t3067p15-which-cups-go-with-what-saucers#16532
------
Demitasse 773/774 and 734, later 3633/4634. This example 1948-1955.
7/6/14: the 734 saucer shape was changed in the mid to late 1950s. The diameter was increased, footring size decreased, and a roll added to the edge. This shape change did not coincide with the change in shape number.
See: http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t3788p15-demitasse#19682

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t3788-demitasse#12637
The saucer shown is a vitrified 774, the later vitrified demitasse used the 734 saucer, which is modified by slight increase in size and addition of a roll edge.
-----
Railway cup 700/(4635?), later 3638/4635.
[16/6/14 ... or is it 700/702, later 3638/4631?]

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4828-vitrified-carlton-700-3638-and-insulator-cups#17561
[16/6/14 I can no longer remember how the saucer number 4635 was arrived at. Reviewing the gallery I would like to think that the original saucer was the 702, replaced in 1973 or later with the 4631!]
[12/1/15 Correct: Railway saucer is 702/4631]
-----
The 739 vitrified coupe saucer ("hotel saucer as 805 vit"), like its earthenware version, 805, is a correct match for multiple cups: I have examples for 755 and 863 (shown in numerical order below).
-
755 "Carlton Cup vit". Weight (thickness) of cup and saucer match nicely. Matched patterns. My duo is double-red-line hotel cup. Matched stamps: vitrified and star.

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t3067p15-which-cups-go-with-what-saucers#16729
The Carlton cup was later matched with a rolled edge saucer.
(See Reflections duo further down.)
-
863 "light weight hotel cup (781) vit" (vitrified tulip cup), matching the earthenware tulip cup and saucer combination 781/805. A perfect tulip duo, slightly smaller than the earthenware duo. Weight (thickness) of cup and saucer match nicely. Matched patterns. My duo is Charleston Hotels Centenary 1966. 1966 backstamp.

http://www.newzealandpottery.net/gallery/Crown-Lynn-Shapes-01-881/800-to-881/863-light-weight-hotel-cup-781-vit-pic_5710.htm
Also seen on the forum in Reflections on Teal.
------
783 and 3612 Air New Zealand cup shape; 3617 shares the same cup body so will have the same saucer. The saucer is similar to the 739 but wider in diameter, shallower, and larger in the cup well allowing for a slightly bigger base than the 863 tulips. Weight (thickness) of cup and saucer match nicely. Matched patterns. My duo is Red Tango.  The saucer is dated 1972, so its matched cup will be the 3612.
[14/11/14 Janice has left info elsewhere that Tango was produced in the 3619 shape but it has a different handle from 783 etc and I cannot tell what that difference is. (Saucer 4610?)]
18/9/17 Since writing about the 783 cup I have bought an Air New Zealand saucer (sadly no cup yet) and see that it is indeed a 739, so I can only assume that the saucer for my Tango cup is either an odd 739 or that in later years the 739 changed slightly. Its use was replaced for other cup shapes by the 4619 (for 755 cups) and 4624 for 3610 cups.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Pottery-glass/auction-733380137.htm
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t3363-air-new-zealand-dc-8-pattern-is-906
The matching E/W cup is 3010 paired with 805 saucer.
----
Cup 3616 as 783 or 3010 with 781 handle 7.11.67. Unknown saucer. Heavy, small diameter OD (14cm) but large diameter foot ring, rolled edge, appears quite flat. I have no ideas but will work on it. This example of Val's is Riviera d956. Dated 1968. [Ed 13/6/14 I'm thinking this could be the 4615, which became the 4619.]


Provenance: straight from the factory. Original photos by Val: http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t5265-cup-3616-and-saucer-for-jeremy#19700
20/6/14 I just picked up one of these. It is small at 14cm and has a well suitable for a vitrified tulip; the 4619 is 14.5 and has a larger well, so it is not any easy "replacement" for this. Stumped again. As it has the double red stripe, I have photgraphed it with one of my Carlton cups in the same pattern: it actually fits nicely.
[photo yet to be posted]
----
Tall Hotel Cup 3610/4619. This cup sits on a heavy rolled edge saucer, about the same diameter as the 805. Weight (thickness) of cup and saucer match nicely. My duo is glazed in duck egg blue speckle. I also have a (stacking) hotel cup saucer in blue speckle but they are not a fit. This blue saucer us dated 1976 so it will be a 4619. It appears to be the same cup and saucer as in isaacwulf's sets:
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4434-duck-egg-blue-over-2000-pieces-need-price-guide-please#15583

The cup is a little baggy in the well of the saucer, but I believe this is a correct pairing.This is most often seen in clear glaze.
8/6/14 now I look again I see that isaacwulf's cups are on 4624s.
I will take another photo when I can locate my 4624 in blue speckle. Note that the cup was first produced in 1964 and the 4624 did not appear until 1973, so the cup must have had a different saucer shape when first introduced. I have always found the 3610/4624 combination too tight.
18/6/14 still working on this I must admit the 4619 is dated 8.5.69 so it could not have been the original. The  4615 is next guess but it is undated. Back to the gallery!
[19/8/15 a photo Ev posted recently showing a display of vitrified wares with their shape numbers has the 3610 sitting on a 743 saucer. The 743 saucer has not yet been identified. I will test the saucer for the 783 Air New Zealand cup to see if it fits a 3610 happily and looks like the image in the photo. See the 3610/743 pic here: http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t6650-sugar-bowl-numbers-investigation#26349 ]
-
Roll edge saucer with Carlton cup replacing 739. I have this in Reflections. Saucers dated 1969.

OD 142mm, ID well 50
-----
Stacking Hotel Cup tea/coffee/saucer 3622/3624/4624
This saucer has a complex shape. The inner footring of the cup sits within the well and the outer ring outside it. Obvious fit. Weight (thickness) of cup and saucer match nicely. I have sets in the Pioneer coloured glaze and RNZAF monogram.

Seen in many different glazes.
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t4647-looking-for-the-stacking-hotel-vitrified-ware-shape-numbers

--------
Notes: Vitrified Saucer Numbers
702/4631 hotel saucer
734/4634 coffee saucer (demi saucer)
739 as 805 (tulip saucer)
743 (4610) hotel saucer

4610 lightweight 743
4615 rolled edge coupe sauce
4619 saucer replaces 4615 - 8.5.69
4624 stacking hotel saucer
4631 hotel saucer (702)
4635 (railway saucer?)
[ed 10/5/15: 4635 was 739 vit coupe saucer, after 22/1/73 before 12/9/83]
4650 - 12.9.83 saucer same as 4050 (4050 rimmed bell cup saucer 2.4.81)

Vitrified Cup shapes yet to be identified
745
(780 cups)

There are two numbers for roll edge coupe saucer in the gallery: 4619 replaced 4615 8/5/69. The 1969 date on my saucers is no help in working out which theses are.

4615 rolled edge coupe saucer
4619 saucer replaces 4615 - 8.5.69

However, the description for the E/W 4017 "[saucer goes with 3016 Father's cup]" saucer adds some confusion: "made from 4619 mould ?? also 4610" as the 4610 ("lightweight 743") is not described as rolled edge. The 3016 Father's cup has a vitrified version, the 3613 "Breakfast Cup as 3016".


Last edited by Jeremy Ashford on Mon 18 Sep - 17:04; edited 8 times in total
avatar
Jeremy Ashford

Number of posts : 3132
Location : Whangarei, New Zealand
Registration date : 2010-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Vitrified Cups and Saucers---A Guide

Post  JanPots on Mon 29 Sep - 8:41

Question is the 4635 - a vitrified version of the forma shape 4035?
Janice
avatar
JanPots

Number of posts : 1639
Registration date : 2012-05-10

Back to top Go down

Re: Vitrified Cups and Saucers---A Guide

Post  Ev on Mon 29 Sep - 8:56

JanPots wrote:Question is the 4635 - a vitrified version of the forma shape 4035?
Janice
The 4635 is a vitrified 739/805 Coupe shape saucer.
avatar
Ev
Admin

Number of posts : 13786
Location : Sth Auckland New Zealand
Interests: : NZ Studio Pottery and NZ Pottery History
Registration date : 2008-08-28

http://www.newzealandpottery.net

Back to top Go down

Re: Vitrified Cups and Saucers---A Guide

Post  Jeremy Ashford on Mon 29 Sep - 16:10

I still can't remember where I got that the 4635 was the railway saucer but Ev's description sounds like it.

The 4624, the hotel stacking saucer, is the vitrified equivalent of the 4035 Forma saucer, or as near to it as you will get, Janice.

It would be nice and tidy if the numbers were the same but for the EW-vit 0-6 difference but I haven't noticed any such parallels yet.

---------
10/5/15
Latest from Ev on saucers:
http://www.newzealandpottery.net/t6357-saucer-info-from-the-portage-museum-files#25005
18/11/17
I have now found a tidy pair of numbers: the vitrified version of 4050 is 4650!
avatar
Jeremy Ashford

Number of posts : 3132
Location : Whangarei, New Zealand
Registration date : 2010-09-11

Back to top Go down

Re: Vitrified Cups and Saucers---A Guide

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Back to top


 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum